Talk:Irish Americans/Archive 2

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social conservative

why are there so many right wing extremists who happen to be irish american —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.139.207.127 (talk) 20:18, 13 January 2007 (UTC).

Well, there are many left-wing extremists who happen to be Irish-Americans. As well as moderates, libertarians, conservatives, liberals, socialists, and any other political ideology you can think of. We're the second-largest ethnic group in the US and come from all strata of society, so you can't really pin Irish-Americans down to a monolithic ideology. Childe Roland of Gilead 19:50, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, they just happen to be Irish because Irish was a dominant immigrant group of the Southern United States where unfortunately is where right-wing extremism is born. See Culture of the Southern United States. davumaya 17:50, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually most Irish Catholics settled in the liberal states such as New York and Massachusetts. Ethnicity and politics are not mutually inclusive. Right-wing Americans come in all ethnicities, religions and races. Same goes for left-wing Americans.--jeanne (talk) 13:05, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Sectarianism

This article is just awful. The subcategories of Catholic and Protestant shouldn't dominate the article, and some of the input is factually wrong. Well the Scots, who were the Irish, invaded Caledonia (now Scotland), then came back to Ireland about the year 1600, as Protestants in the Plantation of Ulster. The article should not seek to perpetrate the bitter sectarianism of Scotland and Northern Ireland. America has gone beyond that. A fresher, more upbeat approach is required. C2yn 23:45, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

It is impossible to discuss the history of the Irish people without making large reference to the sectarianism which destroyed whole generations of Irish people. To pan the article and then make reference to a cosy vision of Scots returning to their 'native' Ireland to plant it is remarkably incorrect and slanted in its own right - the Plantation of Ulster was a viciously sectarian event which cleared Catholic landowners from their own land. Go to my mother's native Donegal and you will find that the majority of landowning families around Letterkenny are still Scots Presbyterians! How can one discuss Irish history without referring to the dispossession wreaked on Ireland by the Anglican Church (tithing destitute Catholics) and the broader protestant ascendancy?Iamlondon 23:32, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Can we not cover the fact that the irish community in the US funded ira terrorists in the UK too ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.243.45.71 (talk) 10:20, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

If you are refering to NORAID then you are totally wrong. The money went to prisoners families and was heavily scrutinized by the FBI. How about the British government giving a large shipment of weapons to Loyalist terrorists from South Africa and directing them to kill random Catholic civilians? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.172.32 (talk) 18:00, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

"The British government giving....weapons to Loyalist terrorists from South Africa...to kill random Catholic civilians". Goodness me, wherever did you get that from! Ever heard of codology? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.198.52.188 (talk) 17:28, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

In the late 1980's a large shipment of modern weaponry arrived from South Africa and was given out between the UVF and UDA. The man who facilitated this was British agent Brian Nelson who answered directly to Brigadier Gordon Kerr, Margaret Thatcher's right hand in Northern Ireland.

Nelson was eventually outed as a agent in the early 1990's. The weapons shipment greatly enhanced Loyalist paramilitaries ability to kill, nine out of ten of their victims being Catholic civilians.

Hope that helped my limey friend. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.91.139 (talk) 18:30, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with the comments above. This article is strangely sectarian. I'm Irish American, I have both Protestant and Catholic ancestors. What is most important to me is that they are Christian. I question the motives of whomever wrote this article, they seem content on promoting sectarian divisions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.255.171.175 (talk) 00:32, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

"If you are refering to NORAID then you are totally wrong. The money went to prisoners families and was heavily scrutinized by the FBI. How about the British government giving a large shipment of weapons to Loyalist terrorists from South Africa and directing them to kill random Catholic civilians?" Absolute classic, NORAID only sent money to peace loving IRA families whilst the British government murdered catholic civilians. Utter tripe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cornisle (talk • contribs) 10:36, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

What is the missing Who in this sentence?

"For example, recruiting drives amongst ????? to enlist recent Catholic Irish emigrants as field soldiers during the..." it is in the 2nd para.Josephbsullivan 06:41, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Good eye. The original inclusion was here back in December. I fixed the text. IrishGuy ^talk 07:54, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

"Protestants"

Why is there a sub-heading for "Scots-Irish" when there is no discussion of any other Irish-Protestants? (Althought there should be). This is a mess. "Pacify" the west? Where is this scholorship from, a 1950's grade-school textbook? I suggest this whole section be removed and redone without the subtle and not-so-subtle POV issues. There is validity to pointing out different waves of Irish immigration, and the unique politics of migration from the British Isles that influenced it - which includes a discussion of religious differences, BUT in no way is defined by it. --Shoreranger 19:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

In yesterday's Irish Times, Brian Walker, Chair of Irish Studies at Queen's University, Belfast, claims that the majority of people indentifying themselves as "Irish American" are Protestant. Millbanks (talk) 13:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

An additional article by Brian Walker, in the 25 April 2008 Church of Ireland Gazette, points out that a significant number of Irish emigrants to the United States were members of the Church of Ireland. They would identify themselves simply as "Irish Protestants", not as Anglo-Irish, Scotch Irish or Ulster Scots. Millbanks (talk) 22:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Andrew Jackson

Unlike, Kennedy, who is almost 100 percent Catholic Irish, Andrew Jackson's purely Irish roots are questionable. His mother, Elizabeth Hutchinson Jackson parent's were both English born, and unless we are speaking purely by where you were born and not your ethnicity, she is English. (ie, a Japanese person born in France, whose parents are from Japan, is probably not considered French.)

So, through his maternal side, it appears he is at least 50 percent English. On his father's side, records on Andrew Jackson are sketchy. President Jackson's father appears to have been born in Ireland but where do the supposed Scots-Irish come in? Logically they are on the paternal side. So if in the best case scenario Jackson's father, Andrew, own father was 100 percent Irish and his mother is Scot-Irish, that would put his ethnic makeup somewhere between 25-37.5 percent. I am not trying to split hairs but am just commenting on the thin ice putting him in here.

This is not even bringing up the vastly different culture and religion John F. Kennedy and Andrew Jackson have even though they are both, supposedly, Irish American. When do you draw the line between when is someone of a certain ethnicity, >50%, 10%, 1%? If so, should Jackson be listed under English American as well as Irish American? A serious discussion about the aforementioned topics needs to take place. Comments? --ProdigySportsman 18:35, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

As a matter of interest, were JFK's forebears ALL Irish? Millbanks 14:36, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes. His grandparents on his mother's (Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy) side had Irish immigrants on both parental sides. Her father, John "Honey Fitz" Fitzgerald, was born to Irish immigrants, Thomas Fitzgerald and Rosanna Cox. Her mother, Mary Josephine Hannon Fitzgerald, was born to Irish immigrants Michael Hannon and Mary Ann Fitzgerald. JFK's grandparents on his father's side were Patrick Joseph Kennedy (whose parents were Patrick Kennedy, an Irish immigrant, and Bridget Murphy, who was the daughter of Philip Murphy and Mary Barron, from County Wexford, Ireland) and Mary Augusta Hickey Kennedy whose parents were also Irish immigrants. Further back then that, I couldn't tell you but in the more immediate lineage his family went straight back to Ireland. [1] IrishGuy ^talk 18:19, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, that sounds conclusive. Millbanks 22:23, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Sigmund Freud

Didn't Freud say something about Irishmen being immune to psychoanalysis? I simply CTRL + F'd Freud in the article and found nothing, so, sorry if it's in there, or if it's mentioned somewhere else that I don't know about. 12.107.247.113 04:52, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but is this relevant? Millbanks 22:24, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Freud actually never said it, but Millbanks is correct...this really has nothing to do with the article. IrishGuy ^talk 22:36, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 16:48, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

British Irish

I think it should be noted somewhere that when the mass Irish migration to the America's took place while the whole of Ireland was part of the UK and therefore the nationality of these people was technically British.

I also think that the Union Flag should be included in the flagcon's part of the page as Ulster Scots are included on this page. Tallicalad 20:12, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, technically you're right, Tallicalad, and you don't deserve the "idiot" label. Also, in the north of Ireland you'll see lots of Union Jacks, flown in the main by Ulster Scots. But to do this here would only stir up a hornets' nest (see Kerronoluain below). As for the present "Four Provinces Flag", well, I've never come across it, but at least it's an attempt to be tactful. In fact though, the Irish tricolour is also just that: it represents the two main components of the Irish nation, the Orange and the Green, with the white being the clear water in between. It's a pity more people don't understand this. Millbanks 09:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, perhaps somebody understands it: the Irish tricolour has now replaced the Four Provinces flag. Millbanks 09:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

"Technically British"....... so I suppose the indigenous tribes of South America were Spanish and the African tribes were Belgian, French, British, German etc.... idiot Kerronoluain 11:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure. It was the "United Kingdom of Great Britain AND Ireland" so presumably the Irish were not in fact technically British. They were Irish but (albeit unwillingly) part of a united kingdom with Britain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Millbanks (talk • contribs) 13:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Kerronoluain, in fairness the native South Americans come from a completely different root to the Spanish, and although the 'Irish' and 'British' have had conflict, they have the same root. Gazh 11:18, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh? And what "root" would that be? The caucasian root that they share with, well, most other Europeans? (who did not live under centuries of British occupation and dispossession of their country by a sectarian British settler-colonial herrenvolk). Go on: give me an Irish history lesson on this particular "root" issue. 194.125.102.224 (talk) 22:56, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and if the lovely civilised British left Britain and invaded Ireland and declared us again to be, say, wilde Irishe savages or, perhaps, barbarous wretches, we would of course technically be these things. Yes, whatever the British say we were, we must "technically" in fact have been. Move aside, Einstein; you've competition above. 86.42.119.173 (talk) 08:30, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The emigrants before 1801 were not British but subjects of the Kingdom of Ireland, which though it was ruled by the British King was a separate legal entity. Just as the 13 colonies had their own status before 1776. If we were once "wild Irish savages" we didn't do very much for the wild Amerindian etc. on arrival in America, did we? Either you accept colonialism or you don't. You can't accept it in north America and not accept it in Ireland.86.42.201.46 (talk) 07:56, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

irish language

What evidence do you have for the relative proportion of Irish and English speech among the Irish immigrants?

Jimmy Carter

Please can we delete his name from Presidents of Irish descent? I've asked around and can find no evidence of Irish ancestry. Millbanks 09:17, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

His name has been re-entered, seemingly on the grounds of its unsubstantiated inclusion in a list by Séan Murphy in the Directory of Irish Genealogy. Since Mr Murphy's article pours doubt on Bill Clinton's (distant) Irish ancestry, I'd advise caution here. Millbanks (talk) 07:37, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Reminds me of how Irish John Kerry was thought to be; have a look at this.86.42.201.46 (talk) 08:15, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Need comment at deletion discussion

Please see the discussion here -- this needs more input from editors who actually work in this area. Badagnani 16:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Images in the infobox

I just reverted an anonymous user's alteration of the pictures in the infobox. He (or she) had removed Ronald Reagan in favor of Archbishop Fulton Sheen, and Mary McCarthy in favor of James Michael Curley. In both cases, I would argue, a more well-known individual was replaced with someone more obscure. Changes of this sort should be discussed first, and a consensus reached. Any thoughts? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 02:59, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The Fulton Sheen picture was replaced by Ronald Reagan by a permblocked user. Fulton Sheen was a well-known American figure who had more solidly Irish roots than Reagan and was more notable for his Irishness. I also think it's important for Fulton Sheen's picture to up their because of the significant impact Irish-Americans have had on the Roman Catholic Church.

As for James Michael Curley, I believe he is more notable than Mary McCarthy.

Sorry for reverting before posting here. I did not check here first before reverting. 75.33.229.58 (talk) 23:46, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The thing about Fulton Sheen is his picture being up does also cover Irish-American contribution to the entertainment industry, specifically television. Flannery O'Connor's picture would be a good idea. James Michael Curley's picture represents something very important; Boston Irish. 75.33.229.58 (talk) 02:54, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I added a third row. 75.33.229.58 (talk) 23:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Very nice work. 75.34.52.63 (talk) 05:07, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Popular culture & Contributions to literature and the arts

I recommend that we combine these two sections into one, and delete all of the irrelevant junk, and come up with one decent, well-referenced section on the contributions of Irish Americans to popular culture and the arts in the United States. There is a great deal of information out there on this, so there is no reason this should be filled with such nonsense. Any thoughts? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 04:12, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• • • Agree totally, however the subject by its nature is 'soft'. Therefore subject to 'nonsense' and sometimes nonsense is entertaining as it can instigate further research or be a source of previously unknown information although trvial. The section should select the most famous and most recognisable individuals who have self identified themselves as Irish American and who have through their careers or life or body of work somehow made a connection with Irish Americans at some point in time that is validated by references.Vono (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 07:53, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Sam Houston

How could a man who died in the 1860's have been president of Texas in the 1930's and 40's, especially when it didn't have a president. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.37.131.146 (talk) 04:46, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Link-Irish American Story Project

HI,

I added a link, www.Irishamericanstoryproject.com

Its a website set up to collect Irish American Stories, its free to use. Not for profit and free from advertising. It was reviewed in the Irish Voice and the Irish Times magazine in the past 3 weeks. I just wanted to give the MOD some information on the website if you are looking at it. I put it in the wrong place and corrected it to External Links. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chopper71 (talk • contribs) 01:09, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Republican Mural

I wondered why this photograph was produced, not least because it features Noraid and Sinn Féin. Certainly in my home town in south east Ireland, you would never see a mural like this, nor in surrounding towns. More to the point, I have never seen one in America. Also, it gives the impression that Irish Americans support Sinn Féin and Noraid, which I'm sure some do. But what about Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, SDLP (or even DUP and UUP)? Don't they have any support in the USA? Millbanks (talk) 07:25, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree it is not representative of most Irish Americans. Cagney & Stacey (talk) 03:43, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I very strongly disagree. This mural, which is identified as being in South Boston, is indicative of the feelings of Irish Americans in that neighborhood, and many others, in support of the Irish Republican cause. You would be very hard-pressed to find any such similar expression of support for FF or FG, much less the DUP or UUP. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 14:09, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Here in Ireland, Fianna Fáil styles itself "The Republican Party", so presumably this party would appeal to our distant cousins in South Boston who "support the Irish Republican cause". Or perhaps it's the fact that Sinn Féin is a socialist (and formerly Marxist) party that attracts them? Is "Southie" a hot bed of socialism? Millbanks (talk) 15:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The feeling in the States, deserved or not, is that Sinn Féin is the Republican Party, and the true heir to the struggle as envisioned and carried out by Pearse, Collins, et al. Fianna Fáil, in my experience, has never had such a reputation or image. But, no, I do not think it has anything to do with socialism, because in almost every other sense, the Irish-American working class is fairly conservative. But, the repeated image and stereotype of Sinn Féin as "the political arm" of the IRA goes a long way toward giving SF a lot of "street cred," for lack of a better term. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 20:17, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Interesting that you imply that Sinn Féin might be "the true heir" to Michael Collins. This would be disputed strongly by Fine Gael. Millbanks (talk) 08:31, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I wonder why not? I mean apparently at least half Irish Americans are Protestant (though perhaps not in Boston). And FF and FG are by far the two largest political parties in the Republic of Ireland. Why don't Irish Americans support them?86.43.194.49 (talk) 15:52, 18 June 2008 (UT

Rupub Jacobite, the article is not about Southie, it is about Irish Americans in general, therefore not representative. Cagney & Stacey (talk) 05:06, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it only reflects the identity insecurities of South Boston - why would anyone pay homage to a group that killed 1,700 Irish people in the last 30 years? BTW I am Irish-happily-living-in-Ireland Irish.86.42.208.131 (talk) 13:09, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Very few political parties in Ireland, particularly those for whom the border is not the be-all and end-all of politics (whatever their rhetoric), have sought support amongst the non-citizen Irish diaspora. Afterall what benefit does it bring? They don't have votes (does the Republic allow citizens overseas to vote without coming home?) and parties raising their funding from the masses outside the country is prone to suspicion. This has left something of a vacuum whereby more nefarious groups have sought support amongst the diaspora for the "freedom fighter" (sic) cause, most notably through fundraising. In my admittedly limited experience a lot of Americans don't really know the intricacies of the Northern Ireland situation (not a unique experience, very many people in all countries hold strong opinion on delicate political situations around the world that they don't know much about), a situation intensified by rather one-sided campaigning (Unionists at best have traditionally tried to bring pressure on the US government to end Sinn Fein/IRA fundraising rather than engaging in a direct propaganda war for the hearts and minds of Irish Americans), and give support to the general cause of "Irish Reunification" without really knowing much about either the cause or the main groups campaigning for it. Timrollpickering (talk) 17:52, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

"What benefit does it bring?". In the case of Sinn Féin, a lot of money. See the Friends of Sinn Féin article. I doubt if the other Irish political parties, north and south, have formal groups of "Friends" in the USA; I'm not sure whether they receive donations. Can anyone help on this point? Millbanks (talk) 08:27, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

That support dropped off after the 9-11 attacks. It's sad that it took such a horrible event to bring home the unpleasantness of sudden death by terrorism.86.42.205.198 (talk) 09:21, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

The support dropped off immediately after 9-11, but have since returned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.251.224.44 (talk) 11:31, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

2008 Election

Here in Ireland we're so pleased to hear that Senator Obama is Irish and apparently John McCain is too. So yet again, an Irish Protestant will be the most powerful man in the world. McCain's forebears or at least some of them, were Scots Irish, and Obama's were Church of Ireland Anglicans. Hillary Clinton, in contrast, is mainly of English descent, but has obviated this disadvantage by finding that she has some Welsh blood too. 86.43.194.49 (talk) 16:01, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Is there a suggestion to improve the article somewhere in this comment? Kman543210 (talk) 00:31, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Good point. I've taken this on board. 86.43.194.49 (talk) 07:38, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Funny, Hillary said she was Jewish, when she was running for New York Senator. Maybe next election she will be black too. Cagney & Stacey (talk) 05:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but she's not likely to say, "I'm English" and wear a red rose on St George's Day. 86.43.194.49 (talk) 07:31, 19 June 2008 (UTC)land

Exactly who in ireland is glad that obama had a great great grandad who was irish? Im in derry, and it definately isnt on our list of most talked about things, get me?

Yes, I get you, because it's not talked about much down here either, in the "sunny" south east where I live. But it's THE big topic in Moneygall Co Offally, where Mr Obama's great, great, great, great grandad came from .The Limerick Post quotes a local as saying that, "it's really exciting for the village, it's the talk of the country". This excitement is shared by The Offally Independent (4 July 2008). According to RTÉ, "Pundits predict that the Presidential hopeful's Irish ancestry could help him fundraise among Irish Americans." Millbanks (talk) 22:11, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Obama's ancestors include a wig maker in the 1700s. The surname was Kearney, which most people would consider Irish. Here's a link.86.42.201.46 (talk) 07:45, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

It is not a supposition, as it is with Bill Clinton, that Senator Obama has Irish ancestry. It is a fact, and clearly documented in today's Irish Times. His great-great-great grandfather, Fulmouth Kearney, came from Moneygall, Co Offaly. Barack Obama is aware of this and is "looking forward to going there for a pint". He might go to Ollie Hayes's pub, where they celebrated his victory by singing, "there's no-one as Irish as Barack Obama". Millbanks (talk) 14:26, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

According to the 14 November Church of Ireland Gazette, Barack Obama's great-great-great grandfather, Fulmouth Kearney, a Protestant, is mentioned in the parochial records of Templeharry, in Cloughjordan parish, Diocese of Killaloe, as having migrated to the United States in 1850. Millbanks (talk) 23:33, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

And....How is Fulmouth Kearney linked to Ann Dunham? Did they trace his direct line of descent down to Ann, with documents showing who married whom?--jeanne (talk) 11:36, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Access the Irish Times of 6 November and look for the family tree mentioned in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.198.52.188 (talk) 17:22, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

In today's Irish Times, page 15, Brian Walker of Queen's University, Belfast, states that Fulmouth Kearney, a shoemaker by trade, left Moneygall, Co Offaly in 1850, to settle in Ohio. He goes on to refer to Ann Dunham as a "direct descendant". Millbanks (talk) 17:35, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Honestly Millbanks, do you really consider President-elect Barack Obama with his 1/64th Irish ancestry to be an Irish-American? Mr. Obama is half-Kenyan and roughly half English with a remote strain of Irish blood. That's like calling the late Princess Diana a British- Armenian because her great-great-great-great- grandmother Eliza Kewick (Kewekian) was Armenian. Or calling Elvis Presley Irish-American on account of his 18th century paternal ancestor David Pressley, an Anglo-Irishman, having immigrated to the Carolinas from Dublin just before the Revolutionary War. And despite the fact that all his descendants married English people. I have, however, seen him listed as Irish-American on Internet sites. We can even go so far as call Winston Churchill a Native American because Jennie Jerome's great-grandfather was an Iroquois Indian. I think anything beyond 1/16th Irish is pushing it. Why not include the Queen as she's a proven descendant of Brian Boru!!!--jeanne (talk) 14:47, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Jeanne, it's all a bit tongue in cheek! I don't think Barack Obama is going to go around saying, "I am an Irishman", as Bill Clinton does. But he can at least prove Irish ancestry. I reckon he's one thirty second Irish, but I suspect that's as great a dash of Irish blood as some of the other Presidents listed as being of Irish descent! Anyhow, it gave the good people of Moneygall a chance to party, and what's wrong with that? Millbanks (talk) 18:59, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Partying is good. But tose same people would probably regard me as a plastic paddy despite my parents' Irish surnames (Griffin and Gilmore), because I'm not famous. I lived in Ireland for years. I know the mindset of many Irish as regards Irish-Americans. I'd say Clinton has a bit more Irish than 1/32 if he's a southerner. The Scots-Irish settled heavily in the region.--jeanne (talk) 19:21, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

See my entry under Presidents of Irish descent in the discussion above. Bill Clinton is probably one sixty fourth Irish. But when the Irish Times ran a series earlier this year about the peace settlement in Northern Ireland, Clinton in his contribution stressed his Irishness. In contrast Tony Blair, whose mother was Irish born and bred, did not mention it once. Millbanks (talk) 22:41, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

If Clinton has ancestry in the south, he is probably more than 1/64th Irish. Remember in the 1790 Census, British also included Irish. He also has a Gibson line-that's an Ulster name for you. Anyroad, Obama is also about 1/64 Irish. How did they trace his ancesry? As for Blair not mentioning his Irish mother, neither did George Harrison, whose mother's parents were both born in Wexford. Yet Lennon, who according to some was 1/4 Irish or according to biographer Albert Goldman only 1/8 Irish, yet he considered himself Irish. I'm only 1/8 French yet when I was a kid, I went around telling everybody I was French, including my teachers. In fact, they considered me Franco-American!--jeanne (talk) 05:55, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Tourism

Numbers of American tourists are apparently going down here in Ireland, which is a great pity. There are various reasons for this. First, Ireland is losing its distinctive flavour; sad, but inevitable. Second, the dollar is weak against the euro. Third (we're told) fewer Americans travel in election year. Fourth, and this relates to the article, it appears that there are "fewer Irish Americans". What this seems to mean is that unless you're a politician or other upfront public figure, the more remote your ancestry is, the less you are likely to think of yourselves as Irish. And since the large waves of Irish emigration to America stopped many years ago, that's what's happening. Millbanks (talk) 15:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Clinton's Ancestry

Millbanks, I'm here to discuss Clinton's purported Irish ancestry. Hopefully nobody will delete this before you've a chance to read it. Most people who claim Irish ancestry, whose families arrived in America before the Irish Civil War, really have a difficult time proving it by documents. This is entirely a result of the Four Courts having been blown up in 1922, destroying all of the records which could be used today, by people researching Irish ancestry. Clinton was an American southerner, and most southerners have roots in Ulster. I think he probably does have family connections to Ireland, but whether or not it's Roslea, Co. Fermanagh, I have no idea. I have noticed Irish ancestry is often greeted by scepticism by Irish-born people, especially those Irish-Americans whose politics do not accord with their own. Millbanks, this is directed at you, so I ask that RepublicanJacobite not be so quick on the trigger in deleting it. I don't know why he's made himself an expert on Irish-Americans, as he's certainly not the only one at Wikipedia. I, myself, have about 75% Irish ancestry.--jeanne (talk) 09:10, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I delete talk page messages that have nothing to do with article improvement, as my edit summary made clear. This has nothing to do with considering myself an expert, it has to do with WP policy. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 14:29, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Noted.--jeanne (talk) 16:37, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

In today's Irish Times, page 15, Brian Walker of Queen's University, Belfast, refers to Bill Clinton claiming, "a Protestant Irish link from his mother who was a member of the Cassidy family, originally from Co Fermanagh. In 2004....in a reference to David Trimble, Clinton declared: 'He's a Scots Irish Presbyterian and so am I'....In fact Cassidy is a Gaelic rather than a Scots name, and most...Cassidys in Fermanagh are (Roman) Catholic".

Also, Clinton is a Baptist, not a Presbyterian (source Nigel Hamilton, "Bill Clinton, an American Journey") and Trimble's family came originally from Nothumberland, England. Millbanks (talk) 17:24, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

British American

Although many US Presidents can claim some Irish ancestry, I imagine that most of them, except JFK, have a lot more English in them (or British: the two are not coterminous). Should there not be a sentence saying this? I'm happy to oblige. Millbanks (talk) 09:05, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but there were quite a few Presidents who had documented Scots-Irish ancestry and other nationalities were represented. Millbanks, see my talk page as I've listed them there. But you are correct in stating that most of them wre in point of fact English in origin, including Wahington and Lincoln. There are many people who are classified as Irish-American on the US census who have some English ancestry in them, but it's not claimed. I personally have English mtDNA, despite being around 75% Irish due to the fact that my direct maternal line comes from England. So on a DNA test I'd come up with English markers, just as Eamon De Valera had Spanish Y-chromosome DNA and would show only Spanish markers. Clinton has English Y-chromosome DNA.--jeanne (talk) 09:41, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

There's an interesting article in today's Irish Times (Paul Hurley: An Irishman's Diary). It's about Irish Presidents, and states that, "Two Presidents were of German and three of Dutch ancestry. Some had Irish blood, the closest being Andrew Jackson.......But most were of British origin". Incidentally, it also refers to a claim that Abraham Lincoln was originally a Roman Catholic. I've mentioned this in the Discussion page on Abraham Lincoln. Millbanks (talk) 18:42, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

That's interesting. I've heard Lincoln had Indian blood besides English.--jeanne (talk) 18:50, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Richard Nixon

In the article on German Americans it's stated that Nixon had German ancestry, and that his second name Milhous was the anglicised version of a German one. This sounds feasible. But I'd heard that Nixon claimed Irish ancestry through a Mr Milhous who was a Quaker in the north of Ireland in the eighteenth century. He was even photographed standing by the Milhous grave. It could be that although Mr Milhous lived in Ireland, he was of German origin.

I had always heard that Nixon was mainy of English Quaker ancestry with some Ulster-Irish. German is a new one for me.--jeanne (talk) 09:32, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

According to Faith of Our Mothers, by Harold I. Gullan, the Milhous family "were of German descent, originally named Melhausen, and went to England to fight for Cromwell. Their reward was land in Ireland..." However, the Nixon family was prominent on both sides of the border between Scotland and England, where most of the Ulster Scots/Scotch-Irish originated. I'd imagine his connection to Ireland was through the Nixons as well as the Milhous family. Eastcote (talk) 22:14, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 04:50, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Flag Icons

The two flag icons on the article are those of Ireland (ie the Republic) and USA. I'm not sure if this is accurate. Most of the forebears of Irish Americans left Ireland before it had its own flag, and many are of Northern Irish heritage. Millbanks (talk) 19:25, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that flag icons are approved of anyway in this case - check the MoS section on flag icons. I'd say remove them. Hohenloh ⁺ 21:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Millbanks (talk) 11:04, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Charles Lynch

I've added Charles Lynch (jurist) to the law enforcement section; surely a very notable I-Am person.Red Hurley (talk) 11:11, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Black Irish Americans

Although on this side of the pond there are quite a few black celebrities with Irish forebears (Paul McGrath, Curtis Fleming, Phil Babb, Chris Hughton, etc), I get the impression that this is relatively uncommon in America because there are not as many mixed race marriages. But apart from Barack Obama there must be some other?. Am I right in thinking, for example, that Mohammed Ali (Cassius Clay) had an Irish great grandfather, a Mr O'Grady? Millbanks (talk) 23:13, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Colin Powell had Irish ancestry, I believe someone from Limerick who acquired a plantation on Jamaica (?) and had a child with a slave. Hohenloh ⁺ 02:33, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Muhammad Ali had an Irish grandfather. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.91.180 (talk) 21:51, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I thought it was his great grandfather. But it still makes him a lot more Irish than Bill Clinton. Millbanks (talk) 10:20, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Millbanks, why does it bother you if Bill Clinton claims Irish ancestry? As I mentioned before, he probably has a considerable amount of so-called Scots-Irish ancestry due to the fact that it is a major component in the lineages of most white American southerners. As to Clinton's origins in Fermanagh, that could well be fictional, however if Obama has traced his ancestry to Moneygall, I'm sure Clinton's origins could be traced back to a specific village or town in Ireland. I realise that Irish people like to carefully decide which Americans can legitimately call themselves Irish. I cannot do so despite having had an Irish-Catholic father and a mother whose blood was roughly half Ulster Irish and surname which originated in Ulster before the Plantation. I am not famous and my politics normally do not find favour with many Irish. I notice that those who wildly claim Irish great-grandparents rarely have the required Irish surname to back up their claim-yet they are those who are most readily accepted. It's strange because although I'm only 1/8th French, I am usually quickly accepted as a Franco-American by the French people that I have met.--jeanne (talk) 09:48, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Why not add sections on the Chinese-Irish Americans and the Montenegran-Irish-Americans while you are at it.Red Hurley (talk) 14:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Soledad O'Brien is an Irish Ladino African American. 81.159.70.120 (talk) 11:51, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Gael

I think the word "Gael" is the Irish language translation[2] for "Irish person". In English it can mean Gaelic speaker, or Irish person. Can't agree with this edit[3] some hours ago. PurpleA (talk) 03:17, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Lynndie England

Seeing as the surname England is Irish, shouldn't US soldier, Lynndie England be included in the article? Soldier Jessica Lynch should be added as well. Millbanks, I await your reply. Tally Ho!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:18, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

The former Tottenham Hotspur and Wales footballer Mike England was Welsh. The Welsh fans chanted "England, England". 81.159.70.120 (talk) 11:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

No, I doubt that the name has it's origins solely in Ireland, unfortuntely it seems the intawebz is full of links claiming this that and the other is Irish just because a person who had that name came from Ireland. England, Lynch and many other names with a perceived Irish etymology are just as English, Welsh or Scottish. Them countries isn't cool enough though, eh? 167.1.176.4 (talk) 09:50, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I think the countries you mentioned are pretty gear; after all Keith Richards is English, The Bay City Rollers were Scottish, and the late, great Steve Marriott was a Londoner.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:04, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

And I'm Scottish. Cool or what? ;) Jack forbes (talk) 10:07, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Jack, not to worry, as you are absolutely gear. I forgot to mention that Keith Richards is part Welsh which makes him super-gear, along with Brian Jones, John Lennon and George Harrison. Then there was the gearest Scottish-American of all time: Jim Morrison Alriiiiiiight!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:36, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Out of those, i bet England is the least gear over there? How right am i? eh? eh? ginnan man gan on an' tell'iz!! 167.1.176.4 (talk) 11:41, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Isn't Carnaby Street in England? And Kings Road? Weren't the Sex Pistols (Johnny Rotten notwithstanding) English? Not to mention Mr. Michael Philip Jagger ("Come on brothers, sisters, Hell's Angels, let's be cool now, don't push around, get into the groove, Ohhh Baby"). Now if that ain't the definition of gear I don't know what is, unless it's Ace the Face.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 11:50, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Stings from my neck of the woods, but his accent is as plastic as Brad Poloski the Irish American drinking green beer on St Paddys day. 167.1.176.4 (talk) 12:26, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh no! Are you telling me Ace the Face is a plastic Geordie? Sigh, just when I thought I was safe from further disillusionment!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:12, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Have you heard Sting talk? Have you heard a Geordie talk? Exactly - two worlds. 167.1.176.4 (talk) 06:30, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I had a friend who was a Geordie (from County Durham); and yes, I did hear him speak on occasion, when I stopped to catch my breath. I haven't heard Sting speak for a long time, I really cannot remember his accent.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:50, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

County Durham? Geordie? Do you mean Mackem? Sting talks like the queen. 167.1.176.4 (talk) 07:06, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh, John never corrected me when I called him a Geordie. Whatever you do, please, please don't say that Eric Burdon is a plastic Geordie!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:13, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

George Washington

Why is George Washington on the list of presidents with Irish ancestry, yet nothing on his own page says anything of this? I don't think George Washington even has any documented Irish ancestors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lolcontradictions (talk • contribs) 05:55, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree. From what I know of George Washington, his ancestors were all English.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:59, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Lots were Irish, such as Dermot MacMurrough, king of Leinster who died in 1171. Or Brian Boru?Red Hurley (talk) 14:35, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Having an Irish ancestor who lived 600 years earlier doesn't make him Irish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.249.3.118 (talk) 18:24, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Hold up

No-where in this article does it actually specify how Irish you have to be to be Irish American. It seems to me that as long as one of your relatives in the past 100 years spent more than five minutes within half a mile of an Irish person you can paid yourself green, grab a Guinness and Riverdance round a shamrock with a lepricorn.

Seriously though, if you haven't got one great-grandparent (at the VERY least) who is Irish then surely you're not Irish-American you're just someone who had ancestors who came from Ireland. Cls14 (talk) 00:44, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I think anything less than 1/16th is pointless in an article on Irish-Americans. Obviously, their Irishness is but a small component of their overall genetic make-up as in the cases of Barack Obama, Bill Clinton, and Elvis Presley. Obama is half-Luo, and roughly half-English (he's in point of fact, only 1/32nd Anglo-Irish); Clinton claims his ancestors are from Fermanagh, but it seems he's mainly English in ancestry. As for Elvis, his biographer Albert Goldman traced the first immigrant Presley ancestor to one David Pressley of Dublin, who arrived in North Carolina just before the Revolutionary War, but after him, there are no more Irish ancestors in his family tree. It appears that Elvis is mostly English and Scottish, with a possible Cherokee Indian ancestress. I think remote or rumoured Irish ancestry should not be criteria for inclusion as an Irish-American.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:43, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

The article alludes to the fact Irish American is one of the heritages that I suppose you could consider dominant in the culture pool. From my personal experience anyway, people who are "part Irish" identify strongly with that part of their heritage whereas others just kind of fade away as the generations continue. In any case it doesn't matter because the census is based on self-identification. So if every white person in America embraced their Irish roots, the country would be 70%+ Irish American. Recognizance (talk) 17:57, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

So then why are people who have remote Irish ancestry, but have never identified themselves as Irish listed on here?69.249.3.118 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:15, 14 July 2009 (UTC).

Inclusion of English Americans in sidebar

I think including English Americans under the heading "Related Ethnic Groups" in the colored sidebar at the top of the page is casting the net a little too wide. The English are a race that is alien and historically hostile to Ireland, and England is a state that has been sending large, organized military expeditions to Ireland to rape, murder, and rob for 700 years. If you looked in any book written in the Irish (Gaelic) language, you could probably easily end up flipping through many consecutive pages of it that did not include a single near-cognate to any English word (except for maybe a very-recently-adopted loan-word from the last one- or two-hundred years). In other words, the two languages look about as similar as Chinese that has been written in the Latin alphabet and English do to each other, and sound about as similar as Slavic or Native American languages do to English (acutally the words "English" and "Enlgand" come from "Angles," the name of a German-speaking tribe from Germany (i.e., non-Celts) that invaded Enlgand in the Dark Ages-- by that time, the Celtic Irish had been living in Ireland for a few thousand years already). Furthermore, anti-Irish prejudice has been very popular in England all throughout this time and up to modern times, including products that poke fun at the Irish (like a so-called "Irish" coffee mug featuring the handle on the inside of the mug, meant to portray the Irish as idiots) commonly sold on the shelves of stores in England.

The English have a lot of German, Danish, Viking and French in their blood to an extent that is just not present in Ireland, and this goes back 1,000 years or more. To connect the British to the Irish ethnically is really to go way back to very murky history. Some experts actually claim that the Germanic and Danish tribes (the Angles, Saxon and Jutes) that invaded England in the Dark Ages actually completely eliminated the native inhabitants of Britain where they settled (i.e., they killed them all). Ironically, I learned this on Wikipedia!

To go back to language for a second: Not only does the Irish language-- as mentioned above-- not look or sound anything like the English language, but it also doesn't look or sound anything like German (which, on the other hand, does have a lot of near-cognate-words to English, including many of the most simple and basic words in the German vocabulary). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.3.104.127 (talk) 15:11, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

If you read Julius Ceasar's memoir about his wars in Western Europe (called either "The Gallic Wars" or "The Conquest of Gaul" in English) the Germans are described as quite culturally distinct from the continental Gauls (who were more closely ethnically and culturally related to the Irish). The memoirs take place many centuries prior to any of the Germanic invasions of Britain that ended up producing the kingdom of England. According to Julius Ceasar, these Germans (who were either the ancestors of the English or closely related to them) had different technology (actually very inferior), religion, language, political and social organization, style of dress (Germans all wore furs and skins like Conan the Barbarian, while Gauls wore spun or woven cloth), and approach to family organization / mores (for instance, the Germans, according to Ceasar, were something like polyamorists or polygamists who didn't live with the members of their nuclear families, while the Gauls were monogamous) than the mainland-European Gauls, who were the "kissing cousins" of the British Isle Celts. They also lived in a territory that was far removed from Gallic territories, and it was their practice to keep as large an uninhabited wasteland between their own territory and that of outsiders (like, for instance, Gauls) as they could, because they thought it made them look powerful. It was their historical custom not to copperate with the Gauls, and they actually often fought against them. The Gauls, on the other hand, had a somewhat common culture with the British-Isles Celts, and even sent their sons to them to be trained as druids (ascetic sages). The pre-Germanic-invasion British Isles were considered by the continental Gauls to be the place where the best training as a druid could be had. Every fact I've mentioned in this paragraph can be found in Julius Ceasar's "Gallic Wars," which is considered by historians to be the earliest-known writing about the Gauls or Celts.

Comparison of the Irish to Welsh or Scots (also included in the sidebar on the main page) makes a lot more sense than comparison to the English. The Welsh and the Scots are similar to the Irish in that they experienced attempting to keep control over their Celtic languages and culture, and control over their land, freedom and resources, while the English were trying to take that all away via nothing more than military force (many an Irish American can tell you some kind of story about how his ancestors were chased out of Ireland for being involved in come kind of anti-English resistance movement). And, the English tried to force their Germanic/French/Latin language on these three Celtic-language-speaking people. The Irish, Scotts and Welsh all succumbed to the English to one extent or another over the centuries, and all ended up being subject to very extensive, forced conscription to fight and die for England's repressive empire around the globe-- in other words, they were forced by the English at the barrel of a gun to risk their own necks to do to other weak peoples exactly what had been done to them by the English (the English then claimed this vast empire was a product of their own brilliance, while it was conscripted Celtic brains, courage, muscle and blood that had a great hand in forging it). Also, originally the Scots were emigrants from Ireland, ethnically identical to the Irish, whose movement from Ireland to Scotland is a well-established fact.

I know the case that can be made for calling the English similar, as far as the English live right next to Ireland and no other nation lives any closer, but that point of argument of course doesn't win by itself. Also, it's obvious that over the past 700 years the Irish and the English have become cutlurally similar in many ways. But considering that the Irish have fought bloody wars against the English for hundreds of years up until very recently, and that both the Irish's desire to be free of the English and England's desire to dominate Ireland rested on nationalistic grounds (i.e., the Irish saw themselves as a separate nationality resisting an alien foe and the English saw the Irish as subhuman barbarians fit to be enslaved) I think the comparison of ethnic Irish to ethnic English is inappropriate and will obviously will annoy many people. Obviously during throughout the founding of America and the rest of America's history, individual English and Irish people have been in very different positions in terms of culture, goals, political power, religion, and everything else, and the same goes for those of them who came to America. Also, while a lot of Irish people spoke English during this time, that doesn't by itself make the Irish and the English related ethnic groups (as I think I have shown very thoroughly) any more than an Iriquois Indian's speaking fluent English or French would have by itself made him ethnically similar to an Englishman or Frenchman. Thanks for reading my complaint.

Goodness, you do go on a bit, don't you? Surely a discussion page about Irish Americans isn't really the place for an anti-English rant? It's as if some anti-American group (say Iraqis or Iranians) used this discussion page to say how awful the Yanks were. Ausseagull (talk) 22:18, 28 April 2009 (UTC) (not English)

173.3.104.127 (talk) 13:31, 19 March 2009 (UTC) Swan

What about the millions of English with Irish blood? Did you know that the Celticness of Ireland is purely language and culture and NOT blood, the blood of Britain and Ireland are one and the same, it is true that the southern and eastern parts of England are more diluted but this is hardly to the choice of the raped and pillaged forefathers of east coast England who suffered wave after wave of attack from Angles, Jutes and Saxons etc 167.1.176.4 (talk) 13:45, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I've re-read this and there are flaws. The British and the English, paragraph 2, second sentence, are not the same. Also DNA tests have shown that whereas people in the north and east of England have large amounts of Viking genes, those in the south and west have lots of Celtic (British!) genes. But that's of very little relevance to the article, and the "complaint" (polemic) should be deleted. Ausseagull (talk) 12:40, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Cleanup suggestions

I've added a {{refimprove}} tag to the article because significant amounts of information need sourcing. However, some specific things need addressing:

• Roman Catholics section: After 1860, Irish Catholic immigration continued, due to family reunification, mostly to the large cities where Irish American neighborhoods had previously been established. - This raises several questions to the reader as well as needing sourcing. Was there a slowdown in the previous type of immigration (breadwinner leaving his family behind and such)? Moreover, was the net number of immigrants increasing or decreasing? If so, why?
• Discrimination section: It was common for Irishmen to be discriminated against in social situations. When? Why? It might be useful to start with something like the bit about less discrimination in American than London, and go from there. I also noticed a lack of discussion about how, for example, claiming Irish heritage today is (if anything) something people would boast about rather than try to hide.
• Stereotypes section: Similar to the previous section, it gives no context and just says Irish Catholics were popular targets for stereotyping. Also like the previous section, it seems to terminate at the beginning of the 20th century. In this case some of it will probably with the popular culture section.

This isn't a fine-toothed review of the article, just some things that immediately stick out as problematic. If anyone decides to work on the article and wants help with proofreading and such, feel free to drop me a line. Recognizance (talk) 17:48, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

As an editor earlier in this talk page said, the article should not have subsections of Catholic and Protestant. It's just "awful", to use his/her words. Maybe someone could rewrite those sections. PurpleA (talk) 00:41, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

The extent of my familiarity with this topic is its portrayal in Gangs of New York - I'm not even an American. But maybe another, more serious tag is needed. Recognizance (talk) 01:02, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Stereotypes

I see there's a piece in the article on "Stereotypes", but it needs updating. Let me say first of all that as an Aussie living in England I'm used to being stereotyped, and we're pretty good at doing that Down Under as well (ever heard of the whingeing Pom?). The Irish, in contrast, are not perceived as whingers, but as people who like nothing better than a jig, a song and a Guinness. Where that leaves Beckett, Shaw, Banville etc., I don't know.

Anyhow, the issue of stereotype came home to me when I read Billy Hayes's book, "Midnight Express". His ghost writer, William Hoffer, refers on various occasions to Mr Hayes' Irishness. His "Irish blue eyes" for example, as shared by his father, "a New York Irishman", who also has "an Irish temper". All well and good, but another character in the book has "Scandinavian blue eyes". Is there a Scandinavian blue as opposed to Irish blue? And do Irish Americans have bad tempers? Most people I've met from Ireland seem to have a lot of charm.

In contrast, Edna O'Brien's "August is a Wicked Month" gives a slightly different picture. She speaks disparagingly of an Irish American, with his "thicker features" and "oily gusto". The main character, a young Irish woman (from Ireland, that is), refers to herself as "English" when abroad, in that being Irish leads to tedious responses about "fairies and grandmothers". Ausseagull (talk) 08:20, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok, as someone who is 75% Irish-American, let me reply to your stereotypes of Irish-Americans. First of all, I do not have Irish blue eyes, instead they are a dark green colour, close to hazel; my features are not thick, in point of fact, they are rather thin and chiseled. As for oily gusto, that sounds like someone who doesn't wash on a regular basis, which I can assure you is not the case with me. Now, for the bit about the legendary Irish temper; well, here I must confess that I have forsooth been blessed (in industrial quantities) with that dubious gift from my fightin, roarin, drinkin and cursin Emerald Isles forebears. En garde, laddie, you have been duly warned. Oh, and aye, my grandmother Katie Toohey from Crossmolina, County Mayo was indeed a fairy--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:37, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think Edna O'Brien would be impressed. Ausseagull (talk) 09:41, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

My point is that this is very unscientific. I'm not sure if anyone's wasted their time on a study of how blue or otherwise Irish eyes are in comparison to those of Swedes, Scots, Dutch, etc., and I'd be very surprised if anyone's worked out a temper ratio either. And what exactly do/did Ron Reagan, Jimmy Carter, Samuel Beckett, Steve Staunton, Edna O'Brien, Paul Keating, Ruth Dudley Edwards and Father Ted have in common? Ausseagull (talk) 22:27, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Irish ancestry, which is what this article is about, not eye colour.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 04:30, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm glad it's not about eye colour because in the latest book I'm reading, Martha Quest, Martha's English mother has light brown hair and blue eyes. (Just in case you're interested, I have Irish ancestry, but am never taken for anyting else but Aussie. I'm happy with that). Ausseagull (talk) 09:41, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Self identification of Irish Americans

Surely to be an Irish American someone must self identify as one, not just have Irish ancestory. Most Americans do not consider themselves British-Americans or even English-Americans (since most from Britain were from England), and they would object to being labelled an as such simply because of their ancestory. We have the absurd situation on the Lists of Irish-Americans where Andy Rooney has been added because he acknowledge Irish ancestory in this statement:

"I'm proud of my Irish heritage, but I'm not Irish. I'm not even Irish-American. I am American, period."

I have altered this article to include the self-identification criterion. Logoistic 19:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

If a black guy in New York states, "I'm Pakistani, I'm not African-American" - does that mena he is not "African-American"--Vintagekits 19:29, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Did you not read the other criterion: "acknowledges Irish ancestory". Andy Rooney says he's not Irish American, but an American. You can't force an identity on someone can you. I mean, you should know Vintage - is John Duddy not British? Logoistic 19:34, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Well I presume if he ever had a passport it probably was UK(British) as you would expect for most people born in Glasgow but maybe John Duddy thought he was Scottish?Wgh001 (talk) 07:20, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I would not simply say we should allow anyone who self-identifies to be included. What ethnic group articles do, is that they explain the importance of the ethnic group. Thus only visible and notable people relating to that group should be included. There could be a caveat to say if Rooney by self-acknowledging an Irish heritage is supporting a fact about his upbringing or the place he lived, for example, then it would be proper. davumaya 17:55, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Just because Andy Rooney says something does not make it a fact. An Irish-American is an American with Irish heritage. Andy Rooney does not have to identify as an Irish-American but he is an Irish-American none the less. Extermino 21:39, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

He also has English & Scottish heritage, does that make him an English-Irish-Scottish-American? There's a good chance that he has some generic connection with Africa, so is he an African-English-Irish-Scottish-American? Where do we stop? Maybe the first paragraph where we are told that this is a 'self-reported' group, and Mr Rooney has quite specifically stated he does not reported himself thus is a clue? Markb (talk) 11:29, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Images

There needs to be more images of female Irish-Americans. Why not include Margaret Tobin Brown-aka Molly Brown of Titanic fame?--jeanne (talk) 06:59, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and more Protestants, too. There's only one image of a female and only one of a Protestant. 86.46.71.88 (talk) 17:46, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Evelyn Nesbit was of Irish Protestant ancestry, so were Lucille Ball and Ava Gardner. Shannon Doherty is of Irish Protestant ancestry as well. All beautiful women whose images would enhance the page.--jeanne (talk) 14:33, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Judy Garland - her Irish ancestry is well documented beyond that of the above mentioned actresses who never once idrntified themselves as Irish American, whereas Garland always did identify herself as Irish American (she was descended from the Fitzpatricks of Smithtown County Meath going back to teh 18 century and her Great Grandmother came from Dublin and she oftened mentioned her Irish Grandmother and Irish attributes) she was a Celt by nature and was (Scots and Irish) - Her fame due to the Wizard of Oz and her phenominal voice are reasons why she will remain famous as long as there is film and recordings media, her work and image will not be dated and unlike most her fame will last and grow, new generations will always come to know and appreciate her great talent- she was also Episcopal so not the typical Catholic Iirsh - she was dubbed America's Colleen when she was in Ireland and the Irish American standard song It's a Great Day for the Irish was written especially for her and was as big a hit for her (it was in constant circulation for 40 years without ever going out of print) as Somewhere Over the Rainbow was and that song was also recognised as the greatest song of the 20th Century - She is one of teh few American great singers to ever record and perform a traditional Irish song in the Irish language putting her own unique spin on it, she is a Legend among Hollywood elite all these reasons demonstrate her deserving to be included and her image as Dorothy should be inculded right next to that pf teh great beauty Maureen O'Hara as it is instantly recognisable. Vono (talk) 19:43, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Catholic sex abuse cases

Has anyone ever written about why a disproportionate amount of clerical abusers were of Irish ethnicity or Irish ancestry ? It has already been said that many abusers were gay, but how about being gay and Irish at the same time ? Are Irish clerics more susceptible to deviant, pedophile sexual behaviour than clerics of other ethnicities ? Why have comparatiely few Italian-American, Hispanic-American, African-American, Asian-American (etc) clerics been caught engaging in illicit or illegal sexual behaviour ? The ethnic and cultural element in this is interesting because it tends to indicate that some cultures are more prone to being sexually deviant than others. ADM (talk) 18:12, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

As an Irish-American I find this comment to be very offensive with its overt anti-Irish, anti-Catholic implications. I would be willing to bet that you would not dare accuse other ethnicities or religions of being prone to sexual deviation, but I suppose to you the Irish are seen as fair game.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:44, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Have you actually crunched the numbers and provided some kind of evidence to back up these claims or are you simply trolling? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kobashiloveme (talk • contribs) 02:39, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Er, regardless, what is the point of mentioning this? You ask "Has anyone ever written about why a disproportionate amount of clerical abusers were of Irish ethnicity or Irish ancestry ?" Who knows? I doubt you're going to find someone to help you search for such a thing here; you'll get reactions like the one above. A Werewolf (talk) 06:08, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it's anti-catholic, he/she mentions Italians afterall. 167.1.176.4 (talk) 11:49, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

But I think it's understood that the comments are decidedly anti-Irish.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:03, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

If you have reliable sources who discuss this topic, feel free to list them on the talk page for the sex abuse cases. But be aware of the guidelines on undue weight. I'm sceptical it would merit much more than a sentence or two, but again, sourced information is always welcome. Recognizance (talk) 18:34, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Instead of asking for reliable sources, why don't people ask ADM to stop trolling and then refuse to give him the time of day. Jack forbes (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2009 (UTC) Jack forbes (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Certainly a disproportionate amount appear to be Irish, but who can say how many other abusers were not caught? Best to leave it to the readers' judgements.Red Hurley (talk) 14:37, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Jack Forbes' suggestion is the best course of action to take.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:53, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Images

I notice that images of John F. Kennedy and John McEnroe are used twice on the page; why not replace them with others? And, shouldn't Andrew Jackson or Woodrow Wilson be used in lieu of Bill Clinton whose Irish origins are rather remote? I believe Clinton is mainly English.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 11:37, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

His mother was Cassidy, Irish name. I have heard him say that he is Irish-American. Tfz 13:50, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but how many generations back? The surname Cassidy only means that at least one of his mother's paternal ancestors was Irish; it doesn't indicate that the rest of his forebears were necessarily Irish.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:50, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Muhammad Ali

Added with a citation; he is visiting Ireland next month. One of his distant cousins has said: "..it is not something that makes me excited. I have always thought he was a bit too brash."Red Hurley (talk) 15:58, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Get Rid of Regan

Please change the photo of Regan at the top. Whatever about his domestic policies, his foreign ones were imperialistic and no decent minded Irish person would be proud that he had his roots in Ireland. We might aswell throw a pic. of Phil Sheridan up for good measure then aswell Kerronoluain 09:12, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

The picture of Reagan should be gotten rid of because Irish-American is the term used to refer to Irish Catholics. Reagan was not Catholic.

First, you spell Reagan wrongly (though correctly later). Also, please note, "as well" not "aswell". Second, you add two new dimensions. You imply that only people with certain political views can be "Irish". You also imply that that to be "Irish American" you have to be Roman Catholic. That means that there has only ever been one Irish American President. Finally, what an odd statement, "Irish-American is the term used to refer to Irish Catholics". There are nearly five million Roman Catholics living on the island of Ireland, nearly all of whom are Irish. They are Irish Catholics. So should they be referred to as Irish American?

Well, you've got your way. Reagan's been repaced with Richard J Daley. Whether you're happier with that, I don't know. Millbanks 18:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Meanwhile someone has added that Reagan's father was "Irish Catholic". I thought his great grandfather was. I think I read somewhere that Reagan's mother had some Scots-Irish in her. Does that qualify her to be categorised as "Irish Protestant"? Perhaps those of us who live in Ireland express things differently. Millbanks 17:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

That was two different people, Millbanks. Irish-American is the term which refers to Americans of Irish Catholic heritage, while Scotch-Irish is the term that refers to Americans of Scotch/Irish Protestant heritage. It is generally accepted that John F. Kennedy was the only Irish-American president. All others which are identified on this page were really Scotch-Irish. There is a very distinct difference between Irish-American and Scotch-Irish-American, but it is very blurry on this page. They are two different ethnic groups which is sometimes confused and one and has been confused as one on this page. 75.32.38.191 01:27, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

No, it's more complicated than that. By no means all Protestants in the island of Ireland are Scots Irish. Yes, the Presbyterians, who are almost entirely in the North, by and large are. But the majority of the 400,000 members of the Church of Ireland are not. Also, many Irish Americans are not Roman Catholic because of inter-marriage. I've pointed out that there have been far more Baptist Irish-American Presidents than Roman Catholic (and had my knuckles rapped for doing so). Yet very few Scots Irish, "Irish Irish" or Anglo-Irish are Baptist. Incidentally, neither in Britain nor Ireland are Scots referred to as Scotch. That's whisky. Millbanks 21:20, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

As for the marriage issue, if an Irish Catholic converts to a different religion because of marriage, they are still of Irish Catholic heritage. Where are these Baptists Irish-Americans roots? Are they not from the Scotch-Irish settlers? Those who intermarried were most likely Scotch-Irish and not Irish Catholic. 75.32.38.191 00:24, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

"Are they not from Scotch-Irish roots?". I doubt it. I've never met a Scottish Baptist, nor a Scots-Irish Baptist, and Baptists here in Ireland are very rare indeed. Millbanks 18:46, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

The Church of Ireland (Anglican) writer, Patrick Semple, recalls in his autobiography that when he attended the University of Chicago Divinity School, he and his wife "were something of a cutiosity. In America Irish means Roman Catholic, and southern Irish certainly does". That might well be the perception, but the number of southern Irish Protestants is growing, and the great majority of them are Anglican. And Patrick Semple continues, "we in fact gravitated towards some Boston Irish American Roman Catholic priests and nuns...and they towards us". I doubt very much if he was asked if he was "Scotch Irish". (I've met him once or twice and I don't think he is). Millbanks 13:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Millbanks, I never made the calim of their being Baptists in Scotland. The Irish Baptists im America you speak of are of Scots-Irish heritage, who converted after coming to America.

Is Patrick Semple an American citizen? His statement supports my point "In America Irish means Roman Catholic". Irish-American refers to the Irish Catholic population. 75.32.38.191 14:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

1. How do you know they were of "Scots Irish heitage"? That's pure speculation. In some cases it could be that a RC Irish American marries a Baptist, and the children, or some of them are brought up Baptist. Things like that are rarely clear cut.

2. Patrick Semple is emphatically not an American citizen. He did spend a year at the Chicago Divinity School, but apart from that he has lived in Ireland all his life. He was born and bred in Wexford. He is a member of the (Irish) Labour Party, and describes himself as an Irish Protestant and a nationalist. Millbanks 07:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

If they were a Roman Catholic that converted to Baptist, then they would have been of Irish Catholic heritage. The point is there aren't Baptists in Ireland, so any Irish Baptists has heritage which is not Baptist. 75.32.38.191 21:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Millbanks, you know you could respond to me here, you were told not to respond to me on your talkpage because it was personal conversation. This relates to wikipedia. 75.32.38.191 13:38, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Just in case you don't respond, I'll go ahead and point out the flaw in your logic.

Let's start with this assumption, there are very few Baptists in Scotland, Ireland, or Northern Ireland. Yet you claim there to be many Irish Baptists in America. I suggest that they were Scots-Irish who converted. You thought this impossible because there aren't many Baptists in Scotland (even though it's obvious when I said "converted" that they did so in America), you claimed it would be more likely that it was Irish Catholics that would convert (you admit they would have had to convert). Now this is really where you made no sense. Why would it be more likely for Irish Catholics to convert, but God, no, Scots-Irish wouldn't convert?

You don't understand where Baptists live in America. Baptists mostly live in the Southern states. Very very very few Irish Catholics immigrated to the south. The only part of the south that had significant Irish Catholics was New Orelans, which is also the only area of the south with a significant Catholic population. However, the majority of Scots-Irish settled all over the south. Therefore, my assesment that it was Scots-Irish who became the Baptists you spoke of was correct.

All these presidents you claim to be of Irish heritage are really of Scots-Irish heritage.

Do you get it now, millbanks? 75.32.38.191 13:49, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Wasn't Regan's father a Catholic of patrilineal Irish decent? That would make Regan of Irish Catholic heritage and an Irish American. 69.29.130.39 (talk) 09:32, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

We Irish (real Irish living in Ireland) consider Reagan was an Irish-American. If religion is your big thing in life, then you will want to know that his migrating ancestor was Catholic and they changed religion at some point, which is not yet a crime. Barack Obama has ancestors named Kearney (a Gaelic name) who were Protestant at some point.86.42.208.131 (talk) 13:04, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

"There is a very distinct difference between Irish-American and Scotch-Irish-American"

No there isn't.

The planters (who were also English and Welsh as well as Scottish) intermixed heavily with the Irish population in Ulster. The same as how Scandinavians in Dublin and Wexford intermixed with the local populace.

When the Church Of Ireland protestants initially went to America they identified themselves as Irish - not Scots Irish, Ulster Scots or anything else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.172.32 (talk) 18:13, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

What seems to be lost among many of the contributors to this article is that religion does not determine ethnicity. Being Catholic isn't a prerequisite for being Irish. In face, wasn't one of the mayors of Dublin a Jewish woman? Irish is an ethnicity, not a religion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.255.171.175 (talk) 00:34, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Obama's Irish ancestry is miniscule and he didn't even know about it until the campaign last year. I think he should be replaced with a someone more well known as an Irish-American such as Regis Philbin, Conan O'Brien, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Father Duffy or William Donovan, father of the CIA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Surgemg (talk • contribs) 06:35, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Montage

I have asked 5 people did they know any of the list of names in the montage image. Most heard of JFK and E O'Neill, but not so much the other. Some are going right back with doubtful Irish links. I propose Clinton and Reagan to be included as they claim to be Irish-American, also should include Irish-Americans from popular entertainment and arts. Montage is well dated, and 'black and white', needs update. PurpleA (talk) 18:20, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Conan O'Brien should be included, many people see him as prototypical Irish American and he mentions it on his show often. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Surgemg (talk • contribs) 06:42, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The list of Presidents is ridiculous

I'm pretty sure with the standards used for the list of "Irish"-American Presidents you can prove any single person on this planet to be any ethnicity/nationality you want. Lolcontradictions (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:06, 9 September 2009 (UTC).

With this paltry and ridiculous comment, you justify blanking an entire section? This is very close to vandalism. Please discuss, rationally and with facts, before removing information. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 16:14, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Let's not forget where the One-drop rule was invented. It is an American practice to adopt or impose any origin or none, on the slimmest ancestry. It's good to have another Irish-American Pres listed who is not Roman Catholic.86.43.188.141 (talk) 09:49, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Derry/Londonderry

The name of County Londonderry has been changed a number of times, in fact, I just reverted yet another change. Per the compromise at IMOS, the city should be referred to as Derry and the county as Londonderry. Please stop changing it. Thanks. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 15:25, 6 December 2009 (UTC)