Talk:Ireland/Archive 2

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Irish Republic or The Republic

• Ireland or 'Éire', capital - Dublin, also referred to as the Republic of Ireland or 'the Republic', but strictly not the 'Irish Republic'; (--213.94.217.98 09:59, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC) This is wrong. The modern state is Irish, and it's the only extant republic that adjective can describe. It is entirely reasonable and accurate to refer to it as the Irish Republic.)
• Northern Ireland, capital - Belfast, also referred to controversially as the 'Six Counties', 'The North of Ireland', and 'Ulster'; the first of these is outdated since local government has changed, the second is questionable since the most northerly point of the island is in Donegal, and the third is somewhat misleading as it is also the name of the historic province of Ulster encompassing three counties in the Republic as well as the traditional six counties of Northern Ireland.¹

Writing things in Irish

Why is nobody writing ANYTHING in irish at all? come on, i'm sure you all know a little.--194.125.42.123 13:46, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Actually, uh...No...:-) Some of us ain't Irish, except by happy heritage, and don't know Gaeltage. At all. --Penta 05:28, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

A good place for writing in Irish is ga:. Marnanel 06:17, May 22, 2004 (UTC)

Had a bash at a bit of the Erse on first paragraph - will put in fadas later - Aodh Deiseach.

The best title for the page

How about Geography of Ireland as a better title? Otherwise we'd have to have Peninsula of Korea as well. --Ed Poor

Oops, I mean let's merge this article into Geography of Ireland --Ed Poor

No, I'm sorry but the Island of Ireland article is necessary. I am including a link to Geography of Ireland. I have had comments from various people about the cavalier way Wikipedia deals with other islands, e.g. Haiti, Cyprus. Thank you for pointing out that Korea is another one. Renata 19:04 Nov 15, 2002 (UTC)

I guess you are emphasizing the geographical unit over the political division. Right? --Ed Poor

No, but in the case of the 'hot potato' Ireland, it is better to start with this. A man from Northern Ireland who saw the original 'Ireland' page went ballistic as it saw everything purely from the republic's point of view. I made the ireland page into a disamb page to give both communities equal weight. That's NPOV. The expression 'island of Ireland' is being used extensively by politicians from both sides as it is the only neutral way to refer to that island. Renata 19:12 Nov 15, 2002 (UTC)

I can see the benefit of a Island of Ireland for linking from Rugby Union Five Nations Championship, etc, where the word "Ireland" is used to refer to the entire island. Incidentally, this is the most-linked disambiguation page... :)

It's not really a disambiguation page - it's just a stub which eventually will be a full article about the island. --Camembert

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Camembert, it has now been a month since you moved this page. When are you going to do the necessary work to rid this widely linked to page from its current stubbish state? -Scipius 20:28 Jan 12, 2003 (UTC)

When I feel like it. I wasn't aware this was a time sensitive issue. If you feel so strongly about it, surely the thing to do is to expand the page yourself? I know I said I would do it (which indeed I will when I find the time, right sources, and right mood), but that doesn't preclude others from getting there before me. --Camembert

It was not my idea to change it and those who make a change are obliged to do the work. I find the current state where we have a less usable Wikipedia a most deplorable situation and I'm disappointed that those who felt so strongly about moving the page are now negligent in following through with what they see as the correct situation. I do have a solution, but it will not be to your liking, therefore, I suggest you get to work. -Scipius 20:54 Jan 12, 2003 (UTC)

I don't want to argue about it, but my feeling is that things as we have them now - even with a stub here - are better than they would be if Ireland was an article specifically about the Republic. I thought I'd made it clear that this was my view (mainly on Talk:Republic of Ireland), and indeed, I thought there was broad consensus on that view of things. That said, I have indeed been tardy in expanding this page, and hope to get to it soon (though I must say, I do not feel I am "obliged" to do so). --Camembert

It is a very peculiar notion indeed that no article (the current situation) would be preferable to a misplaced, but very relevant and usable article, that could be remedied by adding a note explaning the error. Remember, you also have quite a few links to correct. Good luck. -Scipius 22:54 Jan 12, 2003 (UTC)

Anyway, I've made a start. It's not much (there's plenty more which could be said, and probably far better than I've said it), but it is a start. --Camembert

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Links

I've added in a list of other wiki sites at the end, covering the states, institutions, history, political parties, constitutions, etc. It might help people link up with other pages on both the Republic and Northern Ireland. I'm not sure about the inclusion of the reference to the the 'Six Counties' as a name of the Northern state in this article. It is more of a slang term used for political reasons. It might be better calling it a nickname; it has no legal or constitutional validity, any more than the name of the Republic of Ireland is the '26 counties'. They are both used in a disrespectful loaded POV manner by a small minority in both states. JTD 04:56 Jan 20, 2003 (UTC)

The meaning of "Ulster"

Hi - I edited out the word 'historic' from the sentence, "Northern Ireland (the latter name is slightly confusing for outsiders as it is also the name of the historic province of Ulster which encompasses 3 counties in the Republic and 6 counties in Northern Ireland)". I did this for two reasons - firstly, the name Ulster is in use today extremely widely for the nine counties, and secondly, as the phrase "historic province of Ulster," signifies the area above the imaginary line from the Erse to the Boyne. Is this correct? -Kwekubo

The word historic is needed because Ulster is often used to refer to the six-county Northern Ireland or the nine county old province. It has no other meaning. The word historic clarifies which one, the geographic or political. I am going to restore the word. STÓD/ÉÍRE 14:52 Apr 9, 2003 (UTC)

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Removed note

(My note about the list of "other articles" removed from here, since I just saw JTD's note about it above, and I've noticed that quite a few of the so-linked articles add a historical perspective which isn't Republic-specific and is probably useful. Also the page works as a hub. I'm a fool, sorry ;) --Camembert)

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What "Ireland" should refer to

(from User talk:Docu) (following the insertion and removal of an initial note on Ireland )

Re Ireland. We had a detailed discussion (well actually a dispute) on the relationship between Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. It was felt strongly that Ireland should not be equated with Republic of Ireland because Ireland is also used to refer sometimes to Northern Ireland and to cultural and sporting all Ireland aspects that are not simply associated with one of the two Irelands. lol FearÉIREANN 17:05, 12 Oct 2003 (UTC)

;-) well I'm aware that sporting events with participants from [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]] may be held in [[Ireland]]. It's just that when following a casual "Ireland" link, one should have an easy way to continue to the state. It's probably a good choice to make this more explicit, as in Irish_Republic, rather than use the standard format "Alternate use". -- User:Docu

...however, someone's gone ahead and done it anyway. What do you think-- should this be reverted? Marnanel 23:09, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)

(/from User talk:Docu)

We could use note similar to the one on Republic of Ireland: This article deals with the Republic of Ireland. The island as a whole is dealt with at Ireland; there is also Northern Ireland. - User:Docu

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Islands of the North Atlantic?

I have never heard the British Isles referred to as "Islands of the North Atlantic". Apart from the fact that as an Irish person I have no problem with the term "British Isles", wouldn't "Islands of the North Atlantic" also include Iceland, Greenland, and the Faroes?

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Membership of the EU

Ireland is a full member of the European Union since January 1, 1973.

This makes no sense if by "Ireland" it means the island, since EU members are states and not pieces of land. If it means the Republic, it should be on the page about the Republic. If it means that both states holding territory on the island became EU members at the same time, then it's inconsequential (as well as a rather convoluted way to express the idea). Marnanel 03:42, Apr 7, 2004 (UTC)

For all EU treaties, international agreements, and formal occasions, the official title of the state is used, that is, "Ireland". Republic of Ireland is only an official description - despite its widespread use. The whole lot is carefully explained at Republic of Ireland. Hence, a lot of "Ireland"s in Wikipedia and elsewhere quite correctly refer to only that part of the country which left the UK.

In this instance, it matters not, as Ireland (the Republic) and the United Kingdom of GB and NI joined at the same time.

Zoney 10:15, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It's true to say that this line contributes to the confusing tendency here to use Ireland as shorthand for Republic of Ireland by default. This line belongs at Republic of Ireland/United Kingdom, but not really here unless reworded. -- Kwekubo 23:41, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, "Ireland" isn't just shorthand, it's the official name of the State! Zoney 15:07, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Why is this article so focused on the North-South dispute?

Why is this article so focused on the North-South dispute? A more regular format, like the Iceland page might be better. Also, on the subject of Iceland - Isn't that the second largest Island in Europe? Seabhcan - 15-04-04

Iceland is an island which is completely covered by the state also called Iceland. Ireland isn't the same. This page is about the island, and Republic of Ireland is about the Republic. Marnanel 19:50, Apr 15, 2004 (UTC)

true, but there is more to Ireland than the border. Ireland's history goes back 5000 years and has only been split for 1% of this time. Most of the Island would be exactly as it is whether the border was there or not, whereas the article give the impression that our lives revolve around it. seabhcan 16-04-04

Indeed, this page should sensibly discuss Ireland, the (cultural) country (not the Republic), despite the fact that since 1922 it's been split across two juristictions. However, it's somewhat inevitable that the whole issue of partition is in the article. In a way, our lives do revolve around it.

Zoney 10:21, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Whiskey?

Why is there no mention of Irish whiskey in this article?

The article needs some well thought out sections to summarise the various topics concerning Ireland (as a whole, but not just geographically).

Whiskey isn't the only omission from what should be on this page.

I don't have time to go at the article right now though.

Zoney 10:24, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Famine and Population

The article states that the population of Ireland dropped from 8 million to 4 million in 6 years. Shouldn't this be "60 years"?

I should be able to get hold of the real figures. I recently read that 1.5 million people died between 1841 and 1851, excluding those born between those dates (that is, children born in 1842, then dying before 1851, are not counted). Most of these would have died owing to the famine. Need to check before putting in the article.

Exile

I believe the figure of 4 million decrease in 6 years due to death and emigration, I seem to remember something similar in history class. Then again, our history class was... not quite unbiased... (C'mon, 800 years of invasion, colonisation, and rebellion after rebellion being crushed... it's a bit hard to keep a level discourse!)

Zoney 18:44, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

there should be a bit more on the economy given its growth in the last decade or so