Talk:Iranian languages/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Map Overhaul

I will be making many fixes to the new map. Please put all of your suggestions and comments here. I know that much of Afghanistan needs to be fixed (the Persian and Pashto areas). Iran around Qazvin needs to be fixed. Azalea pomp (talk) 04:48, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks please also check your map for Northern Khorasan and also areas around bandar Abbass. The Izady map is really the most detailed map I have seen.. It is only map that also mentions the non-Iranian but Dravidian language of Brahui. Also if possible, areas of non-Iranian languages should be differentiates from sparsely or non-populated areas. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 04:51, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I've seen that map. In other maps, negligence is the main source of error. In Izady's map, deliberate distortion is added to the other sources of error. Alefbe (talk) 04:10, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Will do. I will also be putting cities on the map and fixing spellings of the others. This will help as a point of reference. It is going to take me a few days. :) Azalea pomp (talk) 04:58, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. As for the official date from Afghanistan in the 80s: please note that the date is reliable, perhaps more reliable than many others found in the next. The reason why some languages are not mentioned is because they have relatively small numbers of speakers and do not live in isolated pockets. Rejecting the map only because it was ordered by the communist government is POV. On the other hand, favoring certain maps only because they are published on an educational site, is also POV. For example, this map is from an educational site. But it is not scholarly, because it was simply copied from this non-educational and non-scholarly website. Tajik (talk) 14:27, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

For Afghanistan, I will include data from the Iranica map and the government map. The map I really need to look at is the one in the Compendium Linguarum Iranicarum. Does anyone have access to this source? I may be able to look at it in a few weeks so in the meantime, I will wait to do any edits. Azalea pomp (talk) 19:46, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

The area for Zaza is larger than it should be (for example Diyarbakr is kurmanji-speaking, not Zaza). Also, it's better to have different colors (for example different shades of pink) for Sorani, Kurmanji and Laki/Feyli. Alefbe (talk) 03:52, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

When I make the new map, a more logical color scheme will be included. I am not sure how detailed I need to get. Is Laki for sure in the same subgroup as Kurdish? Or should it be treated separately? Azalea pomp (talk) 04:38, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

A separate color (for Laki/Feyli) would be better. But it's also better to use closer colors for languages from the same sub-branch (e.g. northwestern sub-branch). One solution is to start from one side of the spectrum for southwestern Iranian languages and then northwestern Iranian languages and then southeastern and at the end, northeastern (northeastern and southwestern sub-branches are the two extreme sub-branches in terms of early phonetic innovations). Alefbe (talk) 04:55, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

In the map, Pashtuns of Swat are not represented. There are Pashtuns in Shangla and most Swat (only in Kalam and Kohistan there are Dardics). Pamiris of Tajikistan are not well represented. In 40% Tajikistan by area, Pamiri languages are spoken (although Pamiris by population are only 2 or 3% of Tajikistan). Pamiris of Afghanistan and China are also not well represented. Hazara of many parts of Central and Northern Afghanistan are not represented. Aimaks are not represented. The rest of the map seems correct. It is not right I think to classify Pashto, Pamiri and Ormuri in 1 group and Ossetian, Yaghnobi in another. I think it is better to classify all Eastern Iranian in single group of East Iranian. Ormuri is classified in either Eastern or Western group by linguists. Also it is not right to have only one color for all Pamiri languages because there are extreme differences between them. And yes academic .edu sources are always preferred. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.71.213.78 (talk) 08:00, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. When I am able to get a hold of the Compendium Linguarum Iranicarum, I will get their map as a reference which will help a lot. Do you think I should make every language a different shade? I could designate one color for Pamiri languages and have each one a different color. Also regarding Tangshewi. I have listened to a Tangshewi text and it is definitely a Pamiri language in the Shughni-Yazgulyam group. Azalea pomp (talk) 19:07, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

You are welcome :) Also please note that according to http://www.aims.org.af/ssroots.aspx?seckeyt=373 according to UNHCR most of Kabul is Pashtun (only Kalakan, Shakardara and Qarabagh are Tajik, or more properly called Hazara). Although Dari/Persian is used in writing, Pashto has been spoken in Kabul as the first language for atleast the last 700 years (when Ibn Battuta noted Pashtuns in Kabul). Yes, I think you should make every language a different shade. For Pamiri you can group similar languages/dialects - 1) Khughni-Rukhani-Bartangi-Yazgulyam-Sarikoli, 2) Ishkashmi-Sanglechi-Zebaki, 3) Munji-Yidgha, 4) Wakhi, etc. and have 1 color for a language/group. In the language classification Bactrian should not be shown as more related to Ossetian and Yaghnobi because Bactrian is most related to Pashto and Munji-Yidgha (eg. *d > Bactrian l sound change is inherited by Pashto and Munji-Yidgha). Also Khwarezmian is classified in Pashto group (Northeastern Iranian) by Morgenstierne and Sims-Williams. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.71.220.66 (talk) 08:37, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the link to the statistics. That will help in making the map. Since the extinct Iranian languages like Bactrian and Khwarezmian won't be on the map, I won't have to worry about their precise classification. Azalea pomp (talk) 18:43, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

The information about Kabul is misleading. Kabul is a province and a city. The city is part of the province. See this map: [1]. The province is divided into 15 districts, of which Kabul city is the most populous. In 7 districts, Pashtuns make up the largest group, the rest is dominated by Tajiks or is mixed. Kabul city, with its 2.5 million inhabitants, is up to 45% Tajik. Therefore, Tajiks are overwhelmingly the largest ethnic group in Kabul, followed by Hazaras and Pashtuns. Tajiks and Hazaras make up 70% of the city's population, making Kabul the most important Persian-speaking city of the country. See also this map by National Geographic and this list for Kabul districts. Pashto has no long history in Kabul, and I am not sure what the IP (usually identified with banned User:NisarKand) means with Ibn Battuta. Zahir ud-Din Babur clearly mentions in his autobiography that Kabul was a Persian-speaking ("Sart") city, and that "Afghans" (= Pashtuns) lived as a tribal people to the south of Kabul (see this). Please also note that most of Afghanistan is not inhabited, but only certain valleys. Pashtuns, as a tribal people, dominate the rural areas. The major cities are dominated by Persian-speakers, mostly Tajiks. All major cities of Afghanistan, except for Kandahar and Jalalabad, are Persian-speaking. Even Ghazni and Gardez, although located in "Pashtun lands", have preserved their Persian-speaking character. The Encyclopaedia Iranica describes Gardez as a city "belonging to a network of old isolated Tājīk settlements in southern Afghanistan that are remnants of a time when Pashto had not yet reached the area. ..." [2] Tajik (talk) 21:22, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

For districts and areas of mixed ethnic groups. I plan on making those areas of the map barred or lined. Should I vary the thickness of the bands depending on which ethnic group has the largest majority? Azalea pomp (talk) 00:13, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure what is meant by "old Tajik character" in Ghazni and Gardez, is the term "Tajik" here used for Dardic, Bactrian, Sanskrit, Ormuri, etc.? as these were languages that were possibly spoken there before. As for Kabul, academic sources say Pashto is spoken in most of Kabul as first language. Herbert Penzl said Pashto is spoken "in the southern and central parts of the province of Kabul outside of the Hazara [Afghanistan] territory..." And according to an article in Iranica, Pashto "is spoken in Afghanistan in the regions of Mašreqī, Kābolestān, Wardak, Lōgar, Paktīā (Paktyā), Ḡaznī, the south from Kaṭawāz to Farāh, where it is the majority language, the region of Herat, and Afghan Turkestan, i.e., Bactria, where in the course of the last century important implantations have continued to increase the Paṧtō presence." [3] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.71.219.138 (talk) 07:27, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

First of all, please sign up. Secondly, you misinterpret the Iranica entry, for it is not talking about Kabul (there is a difference between "Kabul" the city and the historical region known as "Kabulistan". There is a separate article for Kabul in Iranica - see here - and that article says that Persian-speakers are the majority of the city: The city then remained more or less unchanged for most of the 19th century under the first Moḥammadzay rulers. At the time, Kabul had three distinct sectors, all enclosed in defensive walls on the right bank of the river Kabul: the citadel (bālā ḥeṣār) to the east, the new Čendāwol district to the west, and the residential and business districts between the two. Only one district was developed on the left bank: Morād Ḵāni, named after Sardār Morād Khan, who built the early Ṣadōzay capital. The city was a tangle of narrow, winding streets, lined by high walls and buildings in tempered mud or pisé (kāhgel), built around inner courtyards (Hensman, pp. 268-72, 410-13; Masson, II, pp. 229-90). The population was mainly Persian-speaking, and included Tajiks, Paštuns, Qezelbāš (in Čendāwol and Morād Ḵāni) and Hindus, as well as some one hundred Armenians and a few Jews (Gazetteer, p. 230). Also see this table provided by Iranica, which clearly states that Kabul is a Tajik city and Persian-speaking. Nobody really disputes the fact that Kabul is a Persian-speaking city. The "Kabuli" dialect of Persian is the lingua franca of Afghanistan. Tajik (talk) 21:29, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Additional information from Encyclopaedia of Islam: in the article "Afghan", Morgenstierne writes:

"... Pashto is spoken in south-eastern Afghanistan from north of Jalalabad to Kandahar, and from there westwards to Sabzawar. (The Kabul area is mainly Persian-speaking, and so is Ghazni.) Pashto is also spoken by settlers in northern and western Afghanistan. In Pakistan Pashto is used by the majority of the inhabitants of the N.W. Frontier Province from Dir and Swat southwards, in some localities in the Panjab, and in Baluchistan as far south as Quetta, probably in all by over 4 million people. ..." Tajik (talk) 13:06, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Is there really an Iranian language called Khalaj

The Ethnologue has two languages called Khalaj. One is Turkic and is a language. The other is a language close to Talysh according to the Ethnologue. What is odd is that both Khalaj groups are given with the same amount of speakers and I cannot find an Iranian Khalaj in any other source. I think the Iranian Khalaj may be an error. Azalea pomp (talk) 02:36, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Ethnologue doesn't have any credibility (unless it cites a reliable verifiable source for a statement). Alefbe (talk) 02:46, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Colors for the new map

Here is the color scheme I have worked out so far. The Eastern Iranian languages will be purples/violets/lavenders/blues/indigos. Ormuri-Parachi will be in green because there doesn't seem to be a consensus if they are Eastern or Western...or is there? The Western Iranian languages will be in yellows/reds/oranges/pinks/salmons, etc. I need to consider keeping the colors very distinct especially with languages which border each other.

I think it would be easier if we kept all of the Persian dialects the same color. All Pashto dialects will also be the same color. I will divide Luri and Bakhtiari as different shades. All of the Central Iran languages will be the same color. I will divide Talysh from Iranian Tat. Fars, Lari, and Bashkardi will be different shades. Or is the classification of Bashkardi settled? Azalea pomp (talk) 02:49, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Seems good. About Bashkardi dialects (including Minabi, ..), their closeness to Lari and Kumzari is settled (although they have some similarities with Balochi, all reliable sources consider them southwestern dialects, based on the phonology). Alefbe (talk) 20:21, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

So is Kumzari closer to Lari and Bashkardi than Kumzari is to Luri and Bakhtiari? Azalea pomp (talk) 20:27, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure. Based on some samples that I've seen, it seems that Kumzari is between Lari and southern Luri (with additional influences from Arabic). Alefbe (talk) 20:39, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Central Iran Dialects

I found this article on Iranica: http://www.iranica.com/newsite/index.isc?Article=http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/unicode/v14f1/v14f1012.html

The dialects of Central Iran includes many more villages than previously included in other language lists. It is going to take a while to plot all of the villages on the map. I will color in whole counties and for the cities include a dot for Persian. For example, while the city of Kashan seems to be Persian speaking (except for the Jews) all of the villages in Kashan are Central Iranian speaking. Azalea pomp (talk) 19:41, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

It's better to show those regions barred. Even in the rural area, most of the new generation not only speak Persian, but also don't know the local old dialect. According to Iranica, in many places the old northwestern local dialects were already extinct by 1970s. By the way, I guess User:Hborjian can help on this topic (I guess he is the author of that page in Iranica). Alefbe (talk) 20:05, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Good idea. The Iranica pages are pretty new so it is great having this new information. As well, I am reading more on Gilaki and Mazandarani on Iranica and the transitional dialects between them. I am going to have to give the List of Iranian languages an overhaul. Azalea pomp (talk) 20:15, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Western Iranian classification

OK, I have read through the various Ency. Iranica articles and from the scholars, these are the list of dialects (I have the geographic names) I have found and the classification of Western Iranian:

A. Central (Median)

1. *Median
2. Northwest: Bijagan, Delijan, Mahallat, Khomeyn, Khomeyn, Golpayegan, Vanishan, Varzana, Khvansar, Neshastabad
3. Northeast: Aran, Zor, Naraq, Neshalj, Qalhar, Bidgol, Abuzeydabad, Qohrud, Badrud, Erisman, Abbasabad, Khaledabad, Dehabad, Fami, Matinabad, Sar-asia, Tar, Tarq, Abyana, Jowshaqan, Yarand, Meyma, Natanz, Soh, Vendada, Farizand, Ardestan, Kesha, Kamuh, Delijan, Nashalj, Bad, Jews of Kashan, Kupa
4. Southwest: Gaz, Khorzuq, Sedeh, Vanusfaderan, Marbin, Nohuj, Zefra, Olunabad, Kuhpaya, Sagzi, Qeh, Kamandan, Farfan, Jarquya, Varzana, *Old Esfahan, Jews of Esfahan, Peykan, Kafran, Kafrud, Yangabad, Hosaynabad, Radusht
5. Southeast: Jews and Zoroastrians of Yazd and Kerman, Anarak, Na`in, Keyjan, Tudeshk, Jeshuqan, Abchuba, Varzeneh, Meshgenan
6. Sivandi: Sivand (Maybe transtional to Southern?)
7. Kavir: Khur, Farv, Farrok, Mehrjan

B. *Parthian

C. Tafresh: Ashtian, Amorah, Kahak, Vafs, Jews of Hamadan, Jews of Tuyserkan, Jews of Borujerd, Jews of Nahavand, Alvir, Vidar, *Old Azeri (Transitional group of dialects from Central to Northern? Some see these dialects as Central some as Talysh, some prefer their own branch…)

D. Northern (Caspian + Talysh-South Tati + Semnan Ring + Semnani...couldn't find a name for the whole possible subgroup)

1. Talysh-South Tati
   1. Talysh: North (Anbaran, Lerik, Archivan, Astara), Central (Asalem, Hashtpar), South (Shandermen, Dulab, Masal, Masule)
   2. Harzand, Dizmar, Kerigan, Hasanu
   3. Khalkhal, Chal
   4. Tarom, Rudbar
   5. Khoin, Balbavin, Sefid-kamar, Halab, Sa'd-abad
   6. Takestan, Eshtehard, Khiaraj, Ebrahim-abad, Sagz-abad, Danesfān, Esfarvarin, Khoznin , Razajerd, Khiaraj, Kolur, Gandomab
   7. Kuhpaye, Alamut, Maraghah, Mushqin, Garmarud, Dikin
2. Transitional: Sefid Rudbar (Transitional of Talysh-South Tati and Gilaki?)
3. Gilaki: *Deylam (Member of Gilaki?), Gilan, West (Rasht), Astana, East (Dastak, Lahijan, Langerud, Macheyan), Galeshi (Deylaman, Sarav, Uri)
4. Transitional: Tonokabon, Kalardasht (Transitional dialects from Gilak to Mazandarani)
5. Mazandarani: *Gurgan (Member of Mazandarani?), Mazandaran (Sari, Babol, Amol, Tunekabun, Shahi, Chalus, Velatru, Khatirabad)
6. Transitional: Shahmirzad (Perhaps transitional dialect of the Semnan Ring to Mazandarani)
7. Semnan Ring: Sangesar, Aftar, Sorkheh, Lazgerd, Biabanak, Mo’menabad
8. Semnani: Semnan (Are Semnan Ring and Semnani in the same sub-branch? Does Semnan Ring transtion Semnani to Mazandarani?)

E. Zazaki-Gorani (Valid unit?)

1. Zaza
   1. Northern (Kirmanjki): Tunceli (East and West Dersim), Erzincan, Erzurum, Sivas (Koçgiri), Gumushane, Mus (Varto), Kayseri (Sariz)
   2. Central: Elazığ (Palu), Bingöl, Solhan, Girvas and Diyarbakır (Hani, Kulp, Lice, Ergani, Piran)
   3. Southern (Dimli): Şanlıurfa (Siverek), Diyarbakır (Cermik, Egil), Adiyaman (Gerger), Malatya, Mutki, Aksaray
2. Gorani: Gahvara, Kandula, Hawraman, Qasr-e Shirin, Shabak, Sarli, Bajawan, Luhon

F. Kurdish (Closest to Balochi?)

1. Northern: Hakkari, Siirt, Mardin, Agri, Diyarbakir, Bitlis, Bingol, Van, Adiyaman, Mus, Urfa, Kars, Tunceli, Malatya, Erzurum, Marash, Sivas, Cankiri, Cihanbeyli, Istanbul, Adana, Ankara, Izmir, Armenia, Basargechar, Minkend, Kubatly, Zangelan, Kelbajar, Lachin, Tbilisi, Quchan, Bojnurd, Mazandaran, Kalardasht, Northwest Urmia, Dohuk, Mosul, Surchi, Akre, Amadiye, Barwari Jor, Gulli, Zakho, Sheikhan, Beirut, Sidon, Tripoli, Biqa, Ashkabad, Northern Cizire (Qamishlok), Kurd-Dagh (Ciyayê Kurdî, Afrin), Ain-Arab, Aleppo, Damascus
2. Central: Suleimaniye, Arbil, Kirkuk, Khanaqin, Mandali, Arbil, Xoshnaw, Pizhdar, Warmawa, Rewandiz, Bingird, Mukri, Kirkuk, Garmiyani, Kordestan, Mahabad, Pijdar, Jafi
3. Southern: Sanandaj, Kermanshah, Xanaqin, Kirind, Qorwaq, Lorestan
4. Lakki: Lakki, Korun

G. Balochi (Closest to Kurdish?)

1. Western (Rakhshani): Sarhaddi, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Panjgur, Kalat, Sarawan
2. Southern (Makrani): Coastal, Lashari, Kechi, Karachi, Oman, United Arab Emirates
3. Eastern: Bugti, Marri, Sibi, Upper Sindh, Kasrani
4. Koroshi

H. South

1. Bashkardi
   1. North: Rameshk, Geron, Darza, Sardasht, Angohran, Bivraj, Beshnu, Durkan, Geshmiran, Marich
   2. South: Shahbavek, Garahven, Pirov, Parmont, Gwafr, Kuh-e Ahven
   3. Outer: Rudbar, Jusi, Dinar Bor, Evaz, Hormoz, Minab, Berentin, Bandar, Rudan, Menujan, Lenge, Hajiabad, Kish, Qeshm
2. Lari: Larestan, Khonji
3. Fars: Kuhmareh, Davan, Dahleh, Kandeh, Kuzarg, Masarm, Birovakan, Dadenjan, Dorounak, Mehboud, Banaf, Papun, Dusiran, Somghan, Gorganah, Gavkoshak, Mosqan, Nudan, Old Kazerun, Old Shiraz, Kazerun, Kalan, Mamassan, Balyan, Hayat (Dowlat Abadi), Lordarengan, Dezhgah, Gowr, Rich, Tang Kish, Zakhoruyeh, Buringun, Dehsarv, Kandeh, Bayagan, Abduyi, Dahleh, Pir Mohlat, Dusiran, Asir, Ahel, Gerrash, Zeynal Abad, Kariyan, Shurab, Dasht, Jews of Shiraz, Bushehr, Tangestan, Borazjan, Kameraj, Rishahr, Khollar, Bardestan, Kuhmarra, Gavkoshak, Qalat, Ardakan, Emanzada Esma’il, Kondaz, Abarj, Sorkh
4. Persian: *Old Persian, Pahlavi, Persian (Farsi), Dari, Tajik, Aimaq, Hazara, Persian Jews, Jews of Bukhara, Khuzestan, Darwazi, Dehwari, Pahlavani, Dezful, Shushtar
5. North Tati: Judeo-Tat, Azerbaijani Tat
6. Luri-Bakhtiari: Lur, Gian, Bara Garivah, Khoramabad, Bakhtiar, Kohkiluyeh, Mamasan, Boir Ahmad
7. Kumzari: Masandam Peninsula of Oman.

I may have made some mistakes. I am not sure Kupa is Northeast Central or not.

Azalea pomp (talk) 00:51, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

It's almost the same as the classification by Windfuhr. Alefbe (talk) 14:47, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

After some edits and formatting, this should be on the List of Iranian languages page. Azalea pomp (talk) 19:04, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

the map

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Iranian_Language_Status.png

Kurdish is an official language in Iraq now. The map should be corrected. Also the page oon Iraq needs correction.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 04:18, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

incorrect, the official language of Iraq is Arabic, Kurdish is a Defacto-regional offcial language, and is only used in the Kurdish Autonomous area, while the rest of Iraq, and the Iraqi currency uses Arabic and English, and sole Official Language of Iraq is Arabic. [4], as stated by the CIA world factbook, Kurdish is only official in Kurdish regions, and not the entire country. map needs to be corrected

Arab League User (talk) 09:46, 16 December 2009 (UTC)--

According to Iraqi constitution both Arabic and Kurdish are two official languages of Iraq, and all official documents including Passport and currency most be in both languages. For instance Passport in Kurdish is going to be in use after 01/01/2010. Syriac is a regional language. Ellipi (talk) 21:56, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Some facts (though not necessarily linguistics)

Yes according to a popular theory Croats belive that they stem from ancient Iranian tribes (Sramathians most probably), the same theory says more or less that also Serbs and Bosnians are from this tribe. see this http://www.magma.ca/~rendic/chapter1.htm there dozens of srticles and books about this. A Romanian friend also once told me that there is a theory that the ancient Dacians of Romania were Iranians. I have not read it anywere but it makes sense, because as Ukraine (Scythia) was an Iranian land and they were also found in the Balkans so Romania most probably has been too. Also remember when Darius went to fight with the Scythians (Iranians) he crossed Danube (the border between the contemporary Bulgaria and Romania), while if there were no Scythians (Iranians) in Romania, then he could attack the scythians Via Central Asia or the Caucasus! He also pointed to some artifacts of Dacians which resembled those of Scythians. Anyway. Another people who you should not forget are the Jaszy of Hungary. As the name suggests they are releated to the Ossetians. In fact they are Alans who entered this region (Central Hungary). They have already forgotten their language but are still or (were for a long time) aware of their ethnicity. It is debated whether or not Armenians are Iranians. The Armenian language is very close to the Iranian languages. Things are similar which could not be said that they are taken over from (other) Iranian languages. Most probably Armenian is a separate branch of the Iranian languages (next to the west eg. persian, Kurdish etc... and East eg. Ossetian, Pamir etc...). Addinf to that the Armenian aristocracy and kings have been of parthian origins. So You can consider them as Iranian peoples or not. Most Armenians however do not like to be related to Iranians and a lot I have encountered are very hostile to Iranians. The main reason is the religiosu difference, not knowing that Ossetians (who do not deny their Iranianness)are also Orthodox Christians. Having said this Georgians who are a Kartvelian people have assimilated many ossetians (Alans) in them. Moreover the georgian ancient kings and aristocracy have been of Parthian origins too. So maybe you can only mention this without listing it. Babakexorramdin 12:53, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Only Haplogorup charts can confirm/deny this. 99.227.90.213 (talk) 01:08, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Needs to be changed to Iranic

There is constant confusion between Iranic peoples and Iranians who are citizens of Iran.

Use Iranic for the language family and use Iranian for populations of Iran —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.227.90.213 (talk) 01:00, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Please read the appropriate "wp:policy" that asks not to change academically established terms. Xashaiar (talk) 17:48, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Araz / Visuals

Araz has created two visuals for the Iranian Languages:

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Iranian_Lanuage_Tree.png
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Iranian_Family_Tree_v2.0.png

Now I think the visualization is better in Version 1.0.

Maybe Araz can comment on why he/she created Version 2.

-- Chartinael (talk) 10:40, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Those are nice and we need to thank the user User:Araz. But two problems are to be discussed before any definitive decision about the inclusion of those maps is made. 1. Why Middle Persian is coloured as "completely extinct"? 2. Why Avestan is considered definitely northeastern Iranian? I was thinking Avestan is more or less Central Iranian. I know that majority of sources consider Avestan north-eastern, but geography is Avestan is not clear. This is at least disputed. Maybe a small and thin "line" connecting Avestan with Central Iranian branch should be added. Xashaiar (talk) 17:57, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Central Iranian?????? Central Iranian is a subranch of northwestern Iranian languages and indeed Behdini or gabri of Zoroastrians of Yazd belong to that group, but Avestan was totally a different language.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

This "central" and "eastern" and "western" do not mean just what you think. For example see the classification of this language. It was certainly from "northeastern Iran" but classified as "northwestern Iranian". Also note the exact quote "Avestan. — The language of the Avesta may be defined as a central Iranian language. There are two dialects, Gathic and the language of the later Avesta." (from Chamber's Encyclopaedia Vol. 7, p. 705). But majority of scholars "classify" Avestan as northeaster Iranian. Xashaiar (talk) 20:02, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Parthian is definitly a Northwetsren Iranian language. and Yazdi dialects are northwest Iranian too. OK?--Babakexorramdin (talk) 22:29, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Second one is better. It should be shown that northwestern and southwestern Iranian languages belong to the same sub-branch (Western Iranian languages). The first diagram doesn't show that. Also, extinct should only refer to leafs of the tree (final languages), not the historical development of languages which are still used today. Alefbe (talk) 18:45, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I think first one is better, if could easily be changed to include what you suggest. --Chartinael (talk) 22:05, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

1. I drew the second to incorporate data on the liveliness of the languages and believe that it gives a much better understanding of the major survived languages of the family and their relations. this is kind of an ethno-linguistic tree.

2. Regarding the Avestan, this is the way this language is usually identified and it is mentioned also on the wiki page on avestan language. Nonetheless if you know a credible source indicating the opposite I can change the graph.

3. On the Middle Persian Languages, give me the name of the still living ones. I couldn't find any.

4. I agree with Alefbe that Eastern and Western Subfamily are not shown here but I think drawing them would make the graph excessively complicated and maybe awkward. on her/his other comment, I have shown all the still living languages based on my knowledge. If you know specific errors please inform me.(Araz (talk) 14:22, 22 March 2010 (UTC))~

As this lemma is about a linguistic classification, I think it is best, to draw a linguistic tree and keep out the ethnoside of things. The differing widths of the branches are unnecessary - even if they are supposed to reflect the number of speakers, which I think convolutes the tree unnecessarily. All that besides points already noted above. Chartinael (talk) 14:48, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Eastern versus Western Iranian

With out knowledge of the living and ancient Iranian languages and the Iranian or Indo-Iranian Urheimat. Instead of Eastern versus Western Iranian, wouldn't Northern versus Southern be a better term? Was Ossetian's ancestor languages ever spoken in the "East". Doesn't Ossetian descend from Alanian which descends from one of the Scythian dialects? Anyone have any sources that discuss alternative Iranian language trees? Azalea pomp (talk) 07:23, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

For the division between Iranian languages, the main issue is that "Western Iranian languages" is a natural sub-branch of Iranian languages (because of the linguistic similarities), no matter what we name it (no matter if we call it "Western" or "Southern"). The name of the two main sub-branches is not that much important. The important thing is that Kurdish and Gilaki and Balochi are much closer to Persian, rather than Ossetian or Yaghnabi. Alefbe (talk) 06:08, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I am curious about Ormuri and Parachi. There seems to be some different classifications for those two languages although I usually seen them classified as Eastern and not Western. Perhaps Eastern Iranian does not form a sub-branch as opposed to a Western branch. Perhaps Western Iranian is closer to Avestan than Avestan is to Ossetian, etc. Azalea pomp (talk) 09:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Some like Skjærvø say that for the old Iranian stage, it's better to consider a central Iranian sub-branch (including Avestan and most of other languages like Medean) and two other sub-branches of southwestern (Persian) and northern (languages of old Saka peoples). But, it seems that for the middle and new stages, there is a consensus on usefulness of western-eastern classification. Alefbe (talk) 15:59, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

The Eastern Iranian branch does seem to be a paraphyletic one. Knowing where the Indo-Iranian Urheimat is, a major division between Eastern and Western just seems outdated. Azalea pomp (talk) 18:07, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I put this in the "List" article's talk-page, but I'll stick it here too since it probably won't get noticed there:

Looking through the huge new Windfuhr guidebook (the Iranian Languages, 2009) p. 12-15 we see a rather different scheme, with 10 major sub-groups: Ossetic is in North Iranian, not Eastern or Western, Pashto is East Iranian, not NE or SE---there are obscure groups such as "Semnan Area" and "Non-Perside" which are apparently on equal taxonomic footing with "Southwest Iranian", but some of the classificatory terminology is not explained very clearly...Jakob37 (talk) 12:49, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

gorani and zazaki =kurdish languages

gorani and zazaki are kurdish alnguages..here sources!psl change it! http://www.joshuaproject.net/people-clusters.php?rop2=C0114

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/a/a4/Linguistik_kart_Kurdistan.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.224.181.13 (talk) 17:37, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Stop bugging every page. Linguistically they are NOT kurdish languages, I don't know how often and on how many lang versions I have to explain that to you. छातीऀनाएल - chartinael (talk) 17:52, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Modern Azari

The tree here presents "Modern Azari" as an Iranian language that developed under "heavy Turkic influence" from the extinct Azari. Maybe i'm missing something, but i think that it's not exactly the mainstream consensus. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 23:52, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

This also seems wrong to me. The article 'Azerbaijani' claims different and looks well sourced. I requested here to change it. If it does not change I will take the tree away in a few weeks, (would be a pity because apart from this it looks really nice). Then someone else could make a new tree (not me, my knowledge about this languages is too limited). Nico (talk) 14:48, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

You are right, the Azeri people may have been originally Iranic, however their language is Turkic and this is a settled matter in the academic world, no mainstream Linguist categorizes Azeri as an Iranic language. Someone needs to remove that from the Tree, it seems we have politically motivated Iranians here editing and including this nonsense; Azeri is Turkic and you cannot forge false facts for politics.

I removed it from the tree some time ago.Nico (talk) 07:33, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

gorani and zazaki =kurdish languages

zaza (dimli is an kurdish dialect ,edit this page please... source : http://www.institutkurde.org/en/language/ http://www.kurdishacademy.org/?q=node/41

turkish and iranian states starded a zaza game ; they want to divide kurds with zaza and kurmanc!they make only Fake language maps!

wwe are with zaza ,kurmanci,loran,gorani,sorani  : the kurdish people.!

and my father is a zaza Kurd and my mother is kurmanci Kurd.!

please edit .

greets serhad — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.183.141.211 (talk) 23:28, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Language comparison table: Kurdish vs Kurmanci

The column header says Kurmanci/Sorani, but the column footer says Kurdish. Also the article text uses Kurmanji not Kurmanci. Someone please make this consistent. I don't know how to edit the table because the edit view just shows this text: Iranian languages word table

and the word ZEMIN is not kurmanji/sorani, the Sorani word for EARTH is /zewî/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.228.41.65 (talk) 18:50, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Article name: Iranian or Iranic (recent redirect)

User Massagetae moved the Iranian languages to the Iranic languages. I think this redirection needs discussion and other editors' votes. I agree that "Iranian" is confusing (with nationality). But the "Iranian" is in a wider use than "Iranic". In the books, articles, papers, and other linguistic related works. A Google search shows this. Winter Gaze (talk) 14:56, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

"Iranic" is also popularly used, e.g. by Morgenstierne, among others. I agree: "Iranian" is confusing with the Iranian nationality. MassaGetae(talk) 15:16, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

OK. But this needs other editors' reviews, suggestions, and votes. Also you moved other Iranian languages-related articles without any discussion. Winter Gaze (talk) 15:22, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, "Iranian" is far more common. Context is sufficient to dab, since hardly anyone ever uses the phrase to indicate nationality. — kwami (talk) 17:15, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Iranic is also used widely. [5]. Why is it that we must distinguish Turkic to distinguish from Turkish but not Iranic from Iranian? We should call it Iranic but add a citation that it is also sometimes called Iranian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.226.203.145 (talk) 04:14, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

We go by sources. 90% use "Iranian", so that is what we use. "Iranic" and "Irano-Aryan" are worth mentioning in the section on naming. — kwami (talk) 05:07, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

The recent IP editor seems to be attempting to prove a negative (the nonexistence of "Irano-Aryan") using a single source. Unless this is a source discussing the question of known aliases specifically (and though Google Books is not granting me a preview, it does not seem to be such a work), this is not sufficient to remove information from the article. I have reinserted the term, though I guess the citation for "Iranic" can stay. --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 13:49, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Actually Iranic is the more correct term over Iranian and I can provide countless sources for this.

If you can, I encourage you to do so, though specifically linguistic sources do seem to predominantly prefer "Iranian". For example Encyclopædia Iranica only uses "Iranian". Academia.edu has 580+ researchers interested in the "Iranian" languages, versus mere 4 under "Iranic".

It also goes by the same reasoning behind German people and Germanic peoples. Iranian today refers to someone from Iran whereas Iranic is the term for the family. "Irano-Aryan" does not exist and should not be there, there's no sources for it. I know Indo-Aryan is used, but Indo-Aryan refers to Aryans from the Indian subcontinent. Iranic is in fact a cognate Aryan that's why people don't use "Irano-Aryan." It's repeating the same term twice, so it should be removed. 69.165.246.181 (talk) 02:37, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

It should be removed if and only if it cannot be sourced. Whether it offends someone's etymological sensibilities is irrelevant.

It seems to be, at least, a dated term. Though sporadic references continue up to modern times, e.g. the top google references seem to mostly point to a single influental book: Albert Pike (1924), Irano-Aryan faith and doctrine as contained in the Zend Avesta.

The following quotation from Vahid Rashidvash (2012), The Iranian and Azari languages, might be relevant (wikilinks added):

The term Iranian was introduced in 1836 by Christian Lassen followed by Wilhelm Geiger and his Grundriss der Iranischen Philologie 1895 whereas Friedrich von Spiegel in 1859 preferred the term Eranian. Robert Needham Cust, however used the term Irano-Aryan as early as 1878 (Saidiyan, 2004). Orientalists such as George Abraham Grierson and Max Müller also differentiated between Irano-Aryan and Indo-Aryan. Grierson also uses the term Eranian. Some recent scholarship - primarily in German - has revived of the term Irano-Aryan in analogy to Indo-Aryan. The linguist Ahmad Hasan Dani uses the term and asserts Iranian is short for Irano-Aryan. The linguist Gilbert Lazard specialist for Persian, has been using the term consequently in his publications whereas Mohammad Djafar suggests to establish Aryan for the branch. Still Iranian remains the standard term used by the vast majority of English-language linguists.

--Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 13:04, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

There are plenty of sources for Iranic. But before I post them, I would like to add that the wikipedia article itself has a beginning stating that this article about the language family and not about the persian language or languages of Iran. If the term Iranic was applied there would be no need for this. Sources for Iranic are:

• The Persian Night: Iran under the Khomeinist Revolution

By Amir Taheri

• Persian Grammar: History and State of its Study

By Gernot L. Windfuhr

• Indian Hist (Opt)

By Reddy

• General Studies History 4 Upsc

By Reddy

• Toward a Typology of European Languages

edited by Johannes Bechert, Giuliano Bernini, Claude Buridant

I can add lots more but this should be sufficient. Some sources for Indo-Iranic:

• Pre-Pāṇinian Linguistic Studies

By D. D. Mahulkar

• Linguistic Analysis: From Data to Theory

By Annarita Puglielli, Mara Frascarelli

• Aryan Philology, According to the Most Recent Researches: Remarks Historical ...

By Domenico Pezzi

• Persian Grammar: History and State of its Study

By Gernot L. Windfuhr

Regarding Irano-Aryan if you look into the entomology of these words, Iranic or Iranian basically derives from Aryan, so there's no point in putting the two terms together. I also want to note that Wikipedia distinguishes between the Italian language and Italic languages or Mongolian language and Mongolic languages. I don't think Iranian should be an exception.69.165.246.181 (talk) 19:25, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Ok, recap since our anon here seems to think their objections went unaddressed:

It is not Wikipedia's business to judge terms by their etymology. More specifically:

1. The vast majority of reliable sources prefer "Iranian" to "Iranic", for whatever reasons. Hence we are forced to keep "Iranian" as the top billing (even though I recognize the benefits of "Iranic").
2. The term "Irano-Aryan" might be etymologically non-sensical, but we still do not censor terminology just due to that. It is regardless a term that is occasionally used, and the article needs to mention this fact.

--Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 16:26, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

There is no "censorship" other than the removal of sourced terminology. Iranic is a more appropriate term to avoid confusion between people of Iran and the family. Like Turkish and Turkic. "occasionally used" is not good enough; especially when it has no sources. Inserting personally favored terminology over sourced ones is not what wikipedia is about. Wiki requires sources to support content.69.165.246.181 (talk) 05:44, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, the existence of the term 'Irano-Aryan' has been sourced, with no less than four references in the "Term" section. Kindly stop removing sourced information.

The idea that there is any serious confusion between "Iranian" the family and "Iranian" the nationality taking place is FWIW also an unsubstantiated assertion on your part. Anyone who might be initially confused while reading something else can click a link and end up on this article.

--Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 18:38, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

How am I the one removing sourced statements? You keep removing the cited statements.69.165.246.181 (talk) 00:08, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

What does the colours stand for?

There are no explanation of what the colours in this map stands for: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages#mediaviewer/File:Moderniranianlanguagesmap.jpg --Vitzque (talk) 19:47, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

They're different languages. Of the big ones, cyan is Kurdish, green is Farsi/Dari, yellow is Balochi, blue is Pashto. I think red is Luri, but yeah the annotation is terrible so it's hard to be sure. --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 20:00, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Language

earth = erd ('Arabic (origin)') ?? that is false, that is germanic!!!! (via culturconnect with kiever rus-arabian it came in arabia) zemîn/zemi/zame is origin in east germanic (zeme is in slawic language normal for earth (zemaiten), a loanword from germanic, in modern germanic means 'grasroot') — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:46:D54:5591:54B9:4BCF:1740:AFD (talk) 02:33, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Aryanic navbox

add Template Aryanic peoples

Add Me

add Template Aryanic peoples diaspora

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Callofworld (talk • contribs) 07:47, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

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Northeastern and Southeastern Iranian categories up for deletion

I've nominated the two categories for Northeastern and Southeastern Iranian up for deletion: Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 December 30#Northeastern and Southeastern Iranian. – Uanfala (talk) 15:09, 30 December 2020 (UTC)