Talk:Ioan Gyuri Pascu/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Figureskatingfan (talk · contribs) 17:02, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I will be reviewing this article, even though I don't know Romanian... ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:02, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

As I state above, I don't know Romanian and know next to nothing about Romania and its culture. That makes it difficult for me to evaluate this article's sources or to check for close paraphrasing. Consequently, I'm assuming good faith; I see that the editors and the nominator are established WP editors, both in en.WP and the Romanian project. I looked at ro.WP, and saw that Pascu's article there looks like a stub; perhaps this version can be translated there. I recommend that you have someone more knowledgeable about Romania to look at things I cannot, especially if you decide to take it to FAC.

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
I tend to make general comments first, then I make more specific ones at the end of the review. Sometimes, if I think that it's easier, I make a few copyedits while reviewing, but if it needs more attention, I mention it below. The prose in this article is generally good, but it suffers a bit from being non-encyclopedic and unnecessarily wordy. I recommend that you have this article extensively copyedited. I could go through the entire article and list all the prose issues, but I personally think that it's a waste of time for GACs, and that it's something that's better done at FAC or PR. See below for a few examples. The lead can be expanded and lengthened.
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
As stated previously, there's no way I can check this. Seems to have no OR. Re: ref 3, Pascu's webpage: Strictly speaking, its use violates WP:SPS. Since GA has lower requirements, I have no problem with GAs using them. Personal webpages are often the only sources available, especially for unrepresented topics. I'm not unopposed to using them when they're the best or only sources available, even for FAs, but I suspect that you'll run into issues if you take this article to FAC. I suggest trying to find other sources that back up the same information, if that's possible.
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
Comprehensive for the most part, except I'm missing any discussion about Pascu's involvement with the end of communism in Romania. I'd think that it'd be needed here, especially since Pascu was involved in subversive and revolutionary activities against the government. I suspect that he had a big influence in this area. I suggest that you look for information about that, if it's out there.
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
Good job here.
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
Very little vandalism.
It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
The only image is in the infobox. You may need to be creative about adding images, especially if there are few free ones of Pascu. Perhaps you could add an image of Bob Marley when you talk about Pascu's musical influences. Maybe an image of Romania, or of a city mentioned, like one of his birthplace? Or an image of some of the people you mention, like Ceaușescu or some of his fellow musicians and performers?
Overall:
Pass/Fail:

Concerning the notes above, as my preliminary answer (I'll answer in more detail below):

On 1) You are obviously right about the copyedits, and your suggestions below were very helpful. I went through the article and corrected those and much more issues, please let me know if you spot more or if I still messed it up. To clarify: much of the article is confusing because it was written in stages (mostly by me), and I myself never retraced my steps before this here GA nom. I do not know how much further the lead can be expanded, though.

On 2) You could technically use Google translate, for all the half-assed results it produces, but indeed, no reviewer should be expected to bear that sort of burden. Concerning the SPS: as far as I could tell at the moment when I expanded the article, this clearly qualifies as "the only sources available, especially for unrepresented topics" - I could simply not find any third-party on some of the records he has put out, although they clearly exist (are downloadable etc.). I took care to attribute all opinions he expresses therein.

On 3) I'm not sure that he was especially subversive, surely not when compared to, say, Mircea Florian. He was indeed involved with Divertis, who were very tongue-in-cheek about communism, but his participation at that stage was belated (1987 to 1989, the last two years of Romanian communism); also, the sources that I encountered do not discuss the contributions of individual members, but rather describe collective routines, some of which are so subtle as to be untranslatable (they had to pass censorship before being staged, and worked on the verifiable assumption that the censors were less intelligent than the educated public). Pascu was on holiday at the time of Revolution, and, although the Divertis show in Iaşi was broken up by the authorities, Iaşi is located on the other side of the map to the revolutionary center in Timişoara. You may be referring to the protest songs he wrote between 1989 and 1996, when Romania was under a benign socialist government (authoritarian by many accounts, neocommunist according to some, but not a dictatorship per se). I did try to research this aspect of his career, and the result is in the article as you see it. Note that is does have one English-language academic work as one of the sources, which probably evidences the impact, even though the moment itself might not have been preserved in internet memory (which was my main source of information).

On 6) I tend to dislike using media in the allusive way you suggest there: it is not of much use (unless we assume readers will go "oh, that guy!" once they see Marley's picture) and is a bit too "Victorian" for my taste (Cluj, and even Agnita, might be better known for stuff other than their connection with Pascu; the same would technically go for putting up a panorama of NYC in Woody Allen). I also should point out that Romania lacks freedom of panorama, which should mean that we can only publish images of buildings that might not be of much relevance. But I did put up another picture that is more in tune with the "race, milieu, and moment" ;). Lemme know what you think. Dahn (talk) 16:54, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm better about the copyedit issues, especially since I went through and did my own copyedit. ;) I suggest that you have another set of eyes look at it for improvement sake. You've given me the reassurance I need about the sources; sometimes we use what's available, even if they aren't the most reliable. Same thing goes for images. One of my tricks is to use infoboxes to break up the prose. Maybe you can find some appropriate quotes by Pascu or about him by his associates. I get it about Romania's lack of freedom of panorama.

Re (3: I suppose my question was if sources about Pascu's involvement with the revolution was. You're right; if the sources don't discuss it, it shouldn't be included. It means that news sources and reviewers don't think his involvement was important enough to mention, so we shouldn't, either. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:50, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

More notes:

Here's an example of this article's wordiness: He took up piano studies by the age of nine, and was also a sopranist in the school choir, entertaining his friends with impressions of known pop singers of the day. The phrase "took up" isn't encyclopedic. Here's what I would've done with it: "He began to study piano when he was nine years old, and sang soprano in his school choir, entertaining his friends with impressions of well-known pop singers".
During fifth grade, he became interested in playing amateur handball, discarding music lessons and deciding to become an actor. At around the same time, Pascu gave up on his piano lessons and learned to play guitar. Also wordy. I'm confused: you state that he discarded music lessons and that he gave up the piano, but he learned to play guitar. That seems contradictory to me.

Reworded. Dahn (talk) 17:03, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

They applied for the nation-wide Cântarea României festival and registered some success with the public. The phrase "registered some success with the public" sounds like it may be taken directly from the source, so it may be an indication of close paraphrasing. Of course, I can't know that for sure since the source is in Romanian. The other problem with the phrase is that it's a weasel word. Just how much success are we talking about? If the source doesn't explain, this could be a good time to directly quote, a la "According to Pascu's webpage, he "registered some success with the public".[3]

Reworded. The source for the quote was as vague as to be ultimately unquotable. Dahn (talk) 17:03, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

On the occasion, he met and befriended Teo Peter, bass player for Compact, and music promoter Andrei Partoş. I assume that "on the occasion" refers to Romanian Radio's concerts mentioned in the previous sentence. You need to tell me, though, like: "He met and befriended...during the concerts".

Reworded. Dahn (talk) 17:03, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

He credits his encounters with rock singers such as Cristi Minculescu, Liviu Tudan, Adi Ordean and Vladi Cnejevici with having been his "third real school". This is an example how you sometime mix past and present tense. I suggest that you go through the article and fix them. Since the rest of the paragraph is in past tense, this sentence needs to follow it. How about: "He credited rock singers like...with being his 'third real school'." Does the source go into what he meant by that? I assume it meant that they taught and mentored him as a musician. It's not up to you to interpret his words for your readers, but if the original text does so, you should include it.

Reworded. Dahn (talk) 17:03, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Two years later, while touring Bucharest with a student theater adaptation of Ion Luca Caragiale's plays, Pascu met the comedic ensemble Divertis. You don't "meet" a group; you only meet people. Perhaps this: "..."Pascu became involved with the comedic ensemble Divertis".

Reworded. Dahn (talk) 17:03, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pascu recalls that, at some point in the early 1990s, the touring Divertis could be called on for tens of consecutive encores, which interfered with their schedule of watching Twin Peaks. Awkward wording. What does "tens of consecutive encores" mean? The closest equivalent in English, assuming that it's a translation issue, could be "dozens". How about: "Pascu recalled that, at some point in the 1990s, Divertis had to perform dozens of consecutive encores while on tour, which interfered with the group's regular Twin Peaks viewing parties." (Too funny; did they not have access to VCRs at their hotels?) ;)

Reworded. (VCRs, believe it or not, were a rare commodity in 1990s Romania, and plus I'm not sure TP was ever on video release in Romania. They aired the show on the only TV station we had, no reruns.) Dahn (talk) 17:03, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In 1993, Pascu registered his first significant success in music, with the album Mixed Grill and the single "Ţara arde şi babele se piaptănă" ("The Country Is Burning and Old Women Are Combing Their Hair", originating with an old Romanian proverb). More awkwardness. Do you mean that the song title was based upon the proverb? And to be picky, you don't have to mention that the proverb is "old", since all proverbs tend to be so.

Reworded. Dahn (talk) 17:03, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This time consecrated Pascu as a protest song author... Incorrect use of the word "consecrate". As I go through this article, it occurs to me that many of the prose issues could be due to translation errors. I wonder if an English equivalent could be: "During this time, Pascu became established as a protest songwriter..."

Reworded. Dahn (talk) 17:03, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

He also supplied the opening act for Western rock groups concerting in Romania... This may be another example of the above. "Concerting" is incorrect. How about: "He also served as an opening act for Western rock groups who performed in Romania..."

Reworded. Dahn (talk) 17:03, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

His daughter, Ana Iarina, was born later in the same month. I tend to avoid references to a celebrity's children unless absolutely necessary, even if the named children are currently adults. While there's no stated WP policy about it, I do think it falls within the spirit of WP:AVOIDVICTIM. I don't think that this information is important, so I recommend removing it. Or you could say something like: "His oldest child was born later that month".

I would normally share your concerns, and it would indeed have been an issue a while ago. However, if you read other bits of the article, you'll see that she has since been quoted and named by her father in at least one interview, that she has appeared on Romania's Got Talent in her own right, and that she is the lead subject of at least one press article. Dahn (talk) 17:03, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pascu was also convoked to appear in a Hungarian-produced film, being cast in the role of a Romanian Police officer... "Convoked"? I was unfamiliar with that word, so I looked it up. It means "to assemble"; not sure that it's accurate here. Do you mean "convinced"?

Reworded. Dahn (talk) 17:03, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hope this helps. I'll put this on hold for a week, to give you time to address my concerns. It was enlightening to read about an artist whose work was probably instrumental in overthrowing Communism in Romania. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:31, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your thorough review, I'll make sure to address your concerns one by one, and I'll also go through the entire article. I usually polish the texts before they're up for review, but in this case I had little time to spare. Dahn (talk) 08:42, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm satisfied with the changes. Golly, with the backlog these days, these articles languish at GAN for so long that there's nothing wrong with polishing after they're submitted! ;) I'll go ahead and pass it. Congrats! Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:56, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Dahn (talk) 07:40, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]