Talk:Intestinal permeability

Crohn's disease

I noticed a mistake in the article today. The article's current wording "Excessive intestinal permeability is a factor in several autoimmune conditions such as Crohn's disease, celiac disease, ..." implies that Crohn's disease is an autoimmune condition. It would be quite helpful if one of the authors involved so far could correct that. --Chris Howard (talk) 18:06, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

it is in part. see the second paragraph of the lead of the Crohn's article and the sources cited there. Jytdog (talk) 22:26, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

"Although CD [Crohn's disease] is immune mediated, it is not an autoimmune disease, as the immunological process appears to be triggered by the content of the gut lumen rather than a self-antigen." (PMID 19687225) --Chris Howard (talk) 23:14, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

see PMID 24321565 (a 2013 review) "Crohn's disease is an autoimmune disorder that affects nearly 1.4 million Americans." The article goes into some detail into the evidence for auto-antigens, etc. I can send it to you if you don't have access. PMID 25075198 has a PMC article, and you can see it treats Crohn's and ulcerative colitis as the two main forms of inflammatory bowel disorders, all of which the authors state are autoimmune. see also PMID 24231127 which is a 2014 review focused on autoantigens in Crohn's.Jytdog (talk) 23:32, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

You have a valid argument there. The PMID I cited and the parts of the Crohn's article (the one you referenced: "While Crohn's is an immune related disease, it does not appear to be an autoimmune disease (in that the immune system is not being triggered by the body itself)" and further down: "There was a prevailing view that Crohn's disease is a primary T cell autoimmune disorder, however, a newer theory hypothesizes that Crohn's results from an impaired innate immunity") do not present it as an autoimmune disease. The more recent review articles you cite present it differently. At this point, is it the Crohn's disease article that needs an update? In terms of expertise I do not see myself in a position to do that. --Chris Howard (talk) 00:20, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

P.S.: In fact also the article Autoimmune disease lists Crohn's disease and specifies it not as "accepted" [auto-immune] but as "immune-related", citing as reference PMID 18806708. That is in line with your statement that "it is in part". --Chris Howard (talk) 13:33, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

glutamine

so about this...

Glutamine is presently the best known compound for reducing excessive intestinal permeability and nutritional depletion is known to result in increased IP. Low levels of glutamine can lead to excessive intestinal permeability and excessive intestinal permeability is known to lower levels of glutamine. Glutamine is the preferred food source for enterocytes. Prebiotics and certain probiotics such as Escherichia coli Nissle 1917 have been found to reduce increased intestinal permeability. (ref for all that is PMID 20613941)

I have a few issues with this:

• I haven't seen any other good MEDRS sources that treat intestinal permability as something to be treated itself; in other articles like PMID 25734736 (a review in JAMA of IBS discussed IP as a sort of symptom - (occurs with IBS with diarrhea more than with constipation) and not something to be treated itself
• i have not seen any other review that makes the strong claim that this source about glutamine. other sources talk about modifying gut flora with probiotics in the context of associated diseases, so that is stronger. but nothing like this about glutamine
• the source, PMID 20613941 is not strong. from its home page it is well indexed which is great. its impact factor is 1.42.

This was added by WholeNewJourney. Would you mind waiting to see if further reviews come out with similar approaches? Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 00:28, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments Jytdog. Lots of sources talk about the need to find treatments for increased intestinal permeability as bacteria translocation due to increased permeability is correlated with many serious medical disorders including chronic gastrointestinal disorders and up to septicemia. You have just read different sources from me. :-P I would mind removing it from the article. However, your point about it not being widely discussed in other secondary sources is making me think... Would you accept a compromise of changing the treatment section to 'research' and toning down some of the wording? Treatments for this condition is still all largely at the research stage.--WholeNewJourney (talk) 01:12, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

thanks for kindly discussing. i would much more comfortable with this being moved to research and with the claims toned down. yes. thanks. Jytdog (talk) 02:21, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

I'd agree with that: the present text seems too definitive given the sourcing. Alexbrn (talk) 02:24, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Alexbrn --Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 07:35, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

The source for that piece is a "scientific paper" that is clearly coming from a "leaky gut" pseudoscientist as they state that all sorts of things can be the result of this permeability. This doesn't appear to be a credible source. 68.113.54.226 (talk) 01:06, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Off topic: gut brain axis and gut flora

The role of the gut-brain axis in developmental and psychiatric disorders such as autism and schizophrenia has been active area of research; many of the environmental factors thought to be relevant to the development of these conditions would also affect the gut flora, leaving open the question of whether specific developments in the gut flora drive the development of autism or whether problems with the intestinal mucosa happen concurrently with the development of autism. The fact that gastrointestinal symptoms are common in children with autism and are probably undercounted, shows that autism and gut issues are probably at least related. There is evidence that gene mutations or insults that can lead to autism affect both the brain and the enteric nervous system, meaning that problems in both systems develop concurrently. The belief that a "leaky gut" might actually cause autism is widespread among the public, but the evidence is weak and what evidence there is, is conflicting.

Jytdog did a very good job of wording and referencing this text. However, it is WP:OFFTOPIC. I propose to include it in the corresponding pages of gut-brain axis, gut flora and autism.

Best regards. --BallenaBlanca (talk) 08:00, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Here is the rest of it:

Gastrointestinal symptoms are common in children with autism, but are often overlooked. Currently is hypothesised that they are not simply comorbidities, but can play a role in the pathogenesis of autism. The hypothesis that increased intestinal permeability may be a cause of autism is controversial, because both increased and normal intestinal permeability in children with autism have been reported. One study concluded that intestinal permeability was abnormal in 36.7% of children with autism, but was always normal in children without autism. There is also evidence in mouse experiments which provides some support for the "leaky gut" hypothesis.

References

I added the stuff I added to give the whole picture. We need to give the whole picture. The 2016 review you found (nice find) makes it clear that for some things (some mutations and insult with valproic acid) there is an underlying cause that effects both systems. We are pretty certain that the "co-occurence" actually happens. The permability causing autism is very contested as that source indicates. Also pulling out the 37% figure (and especially saying "always normal" when it was "normal in the children without autism who were tested" is not good...

Let's work this out here on Talk instead of in the article, so we don't disrupt it. Jytdog (talk) 08:15, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Clearly it is speaking about the results in the context of the study, is a common wording in these cases: "One study reported that the permeability of the intestine to lactulose and mannitol was abnormal in 36.7% of children with ASD, in 21.2% of their first-degree relatives and in 4.8% of healthy adults as controls, but was always normal in children without ASD60."

It is the research section, so is suitable to extend in the research to date. I propose to add your text, to put in context, and mine (which I already have shortened since the previous edition).

Best regards. --BallenaBlanca (talk) 08:31, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

PKD (paleolithic ketogenic diet)

PKD has been demonstrated to be useful. Surprised there is no mention of it in Wikipedia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDPM8o9jcFA — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.92.38.139 (talk) 00:34, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Physical Activity & Gut Microbiota

search: exhaustive physical activity leads to small intestinal injury and short-term loss of gut barrier function

many papers. any relevence? .... 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 00:10, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Leaky Gut Syndrome versus Problems caused by Increased Intestinal Permeability

Neither the Leaky Gut Syndrome section nor the Leaky Gut Syndrome article make clear the difference between the two. The NHS page cited by both articles is much clearer (though it's from 2015 and is no longer on the NHS site). However, the NHS page and Intestinal Permeability article seem to contradict each other. The article says "...(increased intestinal permeability) can act as a trigger for diseases that can affect any organ or tissue depending on genetic predisposition.[4][5][15] Increased intestinal permeability is a factor in ... [13 diseases listed] among others", while the NHS page says ``there is currently little evidence to support the theory that a porous bowel is the direct cause of any significant, widespread problems". Which is it? Housecarl (talk) 04:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

The article's sources are old. PMID:39340718 would be useful instead as a newer one. Bon courage (talk) 06:52, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the 2024 paper. It's very informative. But I'm still wondering: what is the difference between Leaky Gut Syndrome (alternative medicine) and Leaky Gut (recognised medical condition). The paper to which you linked seems to use the terms interchangeably.

The NHS page says "Exponents of "leaky gut syndrome" – largely practitioners of complementary and alternative medicine – believe the bowel lining can become irritated and "leaky" as the result of a much wider range of factors [my emphasis], including an overgrowth of yeast or bacteria in the bowel, a poor diet and the overuse of antibiotics.". And yet PMID:39340718 links poor diet and antibiotics to increased permeability. It also links dysbiosis to permeability, though maybe they don't mean SIBO when they say dysbiosis.

Or maybe this is the contentious part: "They believe that undigested food particles, bacterial toxins and germs can pass through the "leaky" gut wall and into the bloodstream, triggering the immune system and causing persistent inflammation throughout the body."

Or this: "This, they say, is linked to a much wider range of health problems, including: food allergies, migraine, tiredness and chronic fatigue syndrome, asthma, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis and multiple sclerosis (MS), skin conditions such as scleroderma and eczema, autism." PMID:39340718 does link permeability to food allergies, lupus, arthritis, MS and autism, but not to migraine, CFS/ME, scleroderma or eczema.Housecarl (talk) 05:07, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that there is confusion 'out there' (as often with altmed terms, deliberately caused by people sowing confusion trying to leverage legitimate terms for their nonsenses). But Wikipedia need to manage it topic space. So here, the quackery thing is called Leaky Gut Syndrome. This is aligned with the majority of the WP:BESTSOURCES I think. So the direct answer to your question is: the difference is quackery. Bon courage (talk) 06:48, 21 November 2024 (UTC)