Talk:Inter gravissimas

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Wikisource tag

This [Bluewaterarts] translation is not under GFDL or compatible with it, so is presumed to be under copyright, hence cannot be placed on Wikisource. — Joe Kress 07:56, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While that translation suffices for calendar studies, I think that it is, at least in respect of specifically Church matters, not as good as it should be. I feel that the Bull, and translations, ought to be on the Vatican Web site; but I've not found it there. Searching http://www.wikipedia.it for "Inter gravissimas" finds too much, and there seems to be no http://www.wikipedia.va yet. A translation by an erudite Catholic churchman would be welcomed. 82.163.24.100 (talk) 13:40, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikisource tag removed because an independent translation now exists on Wikisource at Inter gravissimas. — Joe Kress (talk) 00:35, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dates of the Bull and the Canons

No doubt the Bull was decreed on 1582-02-24 on a modern representation of the Julian Calendar; and the Julian Calendar was certainly used at the time. But Opera Mathematica V p.15, as shown at ND, which contains the end of the Bull, has "Datum Tusculi Anno Incarnationis Dominicæ M. D. LXXXI. Sexto Calend. Martij, Pontificatus nostri Anno Decimo.", and MDLXXXI equals 1581. The Article seems to have no mention of the change of the day of the change of the number of the year, so the point seems to need clarification in the Article. 82.163.24.100 (talk) 13:21, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Opera Mathematica of Christopher Clavius, Go to Page, Go To Specific Page, Work: Roman Calendar of Gregory XIII, Page: Calendar – Page 15: contains these dating clauses: "Anno Incarnationis Dominicae M. D. LXXXI. Sexto Calend. Martij, Pontificatus nostri Anno Decimo. ... Anno à Nativitate Domini nostri Jesu Christi Millesimo Quingentesimo Octvagesimo secundo, Indictione decima," Four years are specified here:

"Anno Incarnationis Dominicae M. D. LXXXI." (In the year of the Incarnation of the Lord 1581) is the year beginning March 25, 1581;
"Pontificatus nostri Anno Decimo" (Our pontificate in the year 10) is the year beginning May 13, 1581;
"Anno à Nativitate Domini nostri Jesu Christi Millesimo Quingentesimo Octvagesimo secundo" (In the year from the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ 1582) is the year beginning December 25, 1581;
"Indictione decima" (Indiction 10) is the year beginning January 1, 1582.

Even though all of these years agree that the bull is dated February 24, 1582, the two years with continuous numbering, incarnation and nativity, are notoriously unreliable. Fortunately, both of the two most reliable years, pontificate and indiction, limit the bull's given date of "Sexto Calend. Martij" (sixth calends of March or February 24) to the modern historical year 1582. — Joe Kress (talk) 01:48, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Opera Mathematica V p.13, which contains the beginning of the Bull, has M. D. LXXXII. at the top. If that is applicable also to the following Canons, it would mean that the Canons were written or issued in the following year, i.e. after March 24th, 1582, Julian. However, the Article presently has "Attached to the bull were six canons ..." which to me seems to mean that the Canons were attached to the Bull on the date of decree. That's a possible inconsistency. Is the date of writing or isue of the Canons known with certainty? 82.163.24.100 (talk) 13:21, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The bull refers to "the explanation of our calendar" (¶ 10) and to a canon related to the dominical letter (¶ 11). As mentioned by Rodolphe Audette, some of the canons (1, 2, 4) refer to a book entitled Liber novæ rationis restituendi calendarii Romani (no longer extant) for a fuller explanation of the tables than that contained in the canons (or the bull), and that book was to accompany their promulgation. Because they refer to each other, all must have been written at roughly the same time, although the bull's dating clause would have been added only when the pope signed it. Because they were intended to accompany each other, all were probably printed at the same time, on March 1, as stated by the printing paragraph added to the bull. All of them certainly accompanied each other when they were received by the several countries, so the canons were indeed 'attached' to the bull. — Joe Kress (talk) 09:01, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Description

Contains "By "restore", Gregory meant to move the vernal equinox close to March 21, ... ". The Almighty may be able to move an Equinox; but that is not within the power of a Pope. It should read " ... to move March 21 [to be] close to the vernal equinox, ... ". 94.30.84.71 (talk) 15:18, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

At the end of the section, I see "(1612)" as the date of the Opera Mathematica. A search for Clavius Opera Mathematica shows "HTML" dates 1611, 1611-12, 1612, and finds two different "front page"s, one clearly 1611 and the other clearly 1612. It would be nice to have the matter resolved. On the Clavius page, I see that he died "6 February 1612" - but was that a Julian or Gregorian date, and which calendars were the printers using? A detail, of course, but it would be nice to get it perfected. 94.30.84.71 (talk) 12:10, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

References

In my view, there's a much better version of the present Reference 4 at http://echo.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/ECHOdocuView/ECHOzogiLib?mode=imagepath&url=/mpiwg/online/permanent/library/YXK9FE9W/pageimg - 94.30.84.71 (talk) 15:32, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the link. I note that this is Clavius' book on the calendar published in 1603, without his other works included in the first four volumes of Opera Mathematica. Inter gravissimas and the six canons begin on page 53, counting from the front cover. A direct link to a 3X version of that page is

http://echo.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/ECHOdocuViewfull?pn=53&ws=3&url=/mpiwg/online/permanent/library/YXK9FE9W/pageimg&start=51&viewMode=images&mode=imagepath.

I'm adding this link where the text mentions Clavius' book, leaving the link to Opera Mathematica where it is mentioned immediately thereafter. — Joe Kress (talk) 00:19, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]