Talk:Illyrian warfare

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Suspicious-looking map

Can anybody else recognize the borders of modern Albania on that map? After Philip defeated Illyrians (whoever may those be) did he stop at the borders of the 20th century Albania? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.190.91.14 (talk) 16:09, 15 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Illustrations

South Illyrians were under Hellenistic influence. Apart Illyrian uprising 6-9 AD which took place in Dalmatia all other wars (Macedonian, Epirotes, Greeks, Romans) and mercenary recruitment (Alexander campaign etc) took place in South Illyria. There we find Illyrian type helmet and armour, decorated with Illyrian symbols (closed circles etc). But illustrations here represent mostly Slovenian tribe armors of Hallstat culture which wars with their neighbors (Celts?) were not described by historians, so these were not the Illyrian soldiers descripted in Greek and Roman sources. I am not trying to neglect the importance of these illustrations, but I think would be more appropriate if we find illustrations of Illyrian soldiers of the Illyrian kingdom under Bardyllis, Agron etc, which actually are described in Greek and Roman sources. What do you think? Aigest (talk) 14:32, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You can see all types of equipment in the gallery, in effect archaic,classical and hellenistic.Hallstat is identical to Illyrians all over, you shouldnt worry about that.South Illyrians were no difference in the aspect that only the nobles could afford heavy armaments.Hellenistic influence is seen in the small metal peltes with the circles and in that belt but Hellenistic or Archaic-Classical the majority of Illyrian warrriors did not resemble their Kings and nobles.They were mobile and that "economy" made them dangerous,they hit and run.Megistias (talk) 14:46, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Illustrations apart from the artifact from Slovenia(that shows warriors identical to Illyrians anyways) are Illyrians and not just identical.Megistias (talk) 15:28, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Other than that i have to say that i i have lots more material to addMegistias (talk) 16:51, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My point is that Illyrian culture was not homogeneous and South Illyrians (Mat-Gllasinac culture) mentioned in historical sources differed significantly from Celtic-Illyrian tribes in Slovenian territory. South Illyrian (Illyrian Kingdom) soldiers used Illyrian type helmet [1]. This helmet took this name just because was found very numerous among Illyrian archaeological sites, while the other helmet presented in the main article as is a Hallstatt culture helmet used also by Celts, Venets. While in South Illyria (Illyrii proprie dicti) it was not known. So in battles mentioned in historical sources the Illyrian type helmet was used. The image with Hallstatt culture helmet is misleading since it was not what Greek historians saw in the battles with South Illyrians. Hope I was clear. Regards Aigest (talk) 12:51, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Things like the varieties and differences are referenced.That picture you show is a greek hoplite actually, Illyrians never used linothorax.The types of helmets used i have put in.I am still working on this.The image with Hallstatt is not misleading but the opposite.I am still working on this.Megistias (talk) 12:58, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I know it is a Greek hoplite figure, it was just for illustrating my suggestion. My concern was expressed above that although Hallstatt culture influenced Illyrians especially in the North, that was not somewhat true for the Illyrians in the south who were much more exposed to Hellenistic influence. What I had in mind this type [2] which was very common among Illyrians who fought against Macedonians, Epirotes, Etolians, Spartans, Romans etc and it was the common Illyrian helmet in the great majority of the battles mentioned in the article itself. Remember that Illyrian type helmet was found far more distributed that the Hallstatt culture helmet throughout all Illyrian area. Ok I will wait until you finish, sorry for interrupting ;) Aigest (talk) 13:14, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That helmet was used by Greeks,Scythians and Illyrians and even from "certain" Illyrians in Dalmatia not just the south (and the Dalmatians were under Celtic and Greek influence so things get mixed).Hallstatt effected all Illyrians but the ones under direct celtic influence "appear" to retain those charakteristics.Later.

I am writing tons of things and i am far from over.Megistias (talk) 13:23, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Symbol

Hellenistic and Greek kingdoms had subjects and those subjects used specific ornamentation as emblems.Its that simple.In the hellenistic era in general Greek symbolism and ornamentation was adopted far and wide,i.e Carthagenians were equiped like hoplites.Megistias (talk) 09:43, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

NOne is neglecting the influence, if you see my comments above you can understand that is not my position but first apart short period under Alexander which forced south Illyrians to alliance, the Illyrian Kingdom was not subject of Hellenistic kingdoms, secondly word copied is different from similar, third the exact words of reference are similar no need to change author words with ours Aigest (talk) 09:58, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This reference [3] says nothing for Hellenistic origin of the symbol on the contrary "Skeat argued for an early appearance of this motif in Thessaly and Makedonia, from where it was diffused southwards, and attributed its passage to the series of migrations which brought the dorians to Peloponese." so this symbol was in that area (which population?) close to South Illyrians or pre South illyrian population before Dorians entered Greece (1200-950 BC) so South Illyrians could have got that symbol in that time too (no Hellenistic influence then) etc. I admit and congratulated you for the job, but that does not mean to misuse the sources. Going to cherry picking them is OR Aigest (talk) 10:51, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Edits

You offer nothing.Stop removing refs and changing the articlediff1.The symbol was ancient Greek(obviously) and Antigonids were in control of "south" illyria(obviously).

After writing a ton of material and you offering nothing and harrasing for some mindless goal you just barge in.Megistias (talk) 10:23, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want an edit war but you are misquoting Stipcevic reference here. Please provide inline citation from him, otherwise that sentence goes. As for hellenistic symbolism this is not the right place to discuss, while for Antigonid dynasty and South Illyrians read Wilkes or even wiki, how do you claim they come to control South Illyrians while none says that Aigest (talk) 10:31, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article is referenced.The symbol is of Ancient Greek origin as referenced.You dont know history obviously.Even Cassander was in control of south Illyria.Keep your goals to you personal page.My god you havent read anything.Megistias (talk) 10:33, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by South Illyria? Aigest (talk) 10:36, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Part or parts of Illyria that was in the south.Anything above Epirus.Megistias (talk) 10:38, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

i.e. this is Cassander's domain Domains Megistias (talk) 10:39, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are not offering anything, dont bother me nor the article.Megistias (talk) 10:42, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am offering suggestions and corrections If you don't get it. Aigest (talk) 10:51, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The symbol was ancient Greek origin, i didnt write that it has Hellenistic origin.Learn to read and understand what i write.Illyrians didnt get it from the Dorians as the reference does not state this.Read on what Hellenistic culture is.Megistias (talk) 10:58, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But the refernece didn't say anything about Illyrians at all, moreover FYI it is not "ancient Greek origin" which begans with dorians invasion (read link) but it existed before doric invasion (pre-dorians population in Macedonia) then Dorians spread it out according to Skeat.

Maybe you didn't get my point. This article is about Illyrian warfare which was made mainly by Illyrian kingdom rulers not just single tribes. The Illyrian Kingdom was not under Antigonid Dynasty and wars, soldiers and mercenaries were provided by that kingdom if you don't see that... Aigest (talk) 11:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you dont understand simple things its not my problem.Dorians-Macedonians-Thessalians- PreDorian, are Ancient Greeks.The symbol is Ancient Greek.You dont know basic things.

See Cassander on south Illyria and Diadochi.The kingdom in Dardania was in Dardania.
I am not going to repeat myself just because you dont get it.Megistias (talk) 11:14, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Stop harassing meMegistias (talk) 11:36, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Where did that equation came out? Once more refreshing:

Illyrian Kingdom was different from Dardania kingdom or tribes a similar example Japodes were not under Illyrian kingdom, and they fought romans as tribes not kingdom
The Illyrian clashes included clashes of Illyrian kingdom, Dardanian kingdom (or Tribes) against Hellenistic kingdoms and Illyrian kingdom, Dardanian kingdom (or Tribes) other Illyrian tribes or tribe alliances in the north against Romans. This are documented and the military warfare article sholud stick on them.

Moreover just for declaring how you are wrong here two statements from wiki

Ancient Greek is the historical stage in the development of the Greek language spanning across the Archaic (c. 9th–6th centuries BC), Classical (c. 5th–4th centuries BC), and Hellenistic (c. 3rd century BC–6th century AD) periods of ancient Greece and the ancient world.
Ancient Greece The term ancient Greece refers to the period of Greek history lasting from the Greek Dark Ages ca. 1100 BC and the Dorian invasion, to 146 BC and the Roman conquest of Greece after the Battle of Corinth.

How come that the reference speaking clearly for the use and origin of this symbol by a local population in Macedonia area before dorian invasion (1200-950 bc) that mean before 1200 bc (to be sure) became Ancient Greek? Do you see the differences or you don't agree with that statement in wiki Greece articles?

Moreover the concentric circles, solar disc, swastika etc were IE symbol, especially used by Illyrians (read Wilkes) how come an IE became ancient Greek? You better read before adding such info, others have done so before you

P.S. I am not harassing you but your claims. Stick to the arguments Aigest (talk) 11:53, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cassander domain

Wilkes words " Glaucias of Taulantii though defeated by Alexander in 335 BC survived for more than a generation and was still ruling in 302 BC. In 317 BC Glaucaias offered asylum to the infant Pyrrhus...Cassander eager to gain Epirus ...offered 200 talents for Pyrrus but the offer was declined. Three years later Cassander came west defeated Glaucias and seized Durrachium and Apollonia on the borders of his territory. Another three years, in 312 BC Corcyra recoverd two cities and handed Durrachium over to Glaucias..Pyrrhus grew safe among the Taulantii and around five years later on the death of Alcetas...Glaucias marched south and established on throne the 12 year old Pyrrhus. In 303/2 BC Pyrrhus came to court of Glaucias, presumably now his adopting father, to attend the marriage of one of his sons..."

Now where the hell was Macedonian control over coastal cities or even Illyrian kingdom on the south. Taulantii (Illyrian tribe behind Durrachium) dynasty was still controlling the area for most of the time during Cassander reign. Aigest (talk) 13:19, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Specifically regarding to the find we are talking about 3rd century BC.That is Philip V of Macedon and the specific area was under his control.

See the articles,Ancient Greeks always had control of part of south Illyria after Philip II of Macedon.Megistias (talk) 21:24, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is the video game Rome total war supposed to be a reputable source?

Citing video games in historical pages doesn't seem credible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.89.84.163 (talk) 10:35, 31 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

some of the descriptions in "army units" is taken word for word from descriptions in europa barbourm.

http://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_epeiros_units.html Illryian spearmen: "They wear no armor, and have only a light shield for protection, so most other infantry will slaughter them in droves. They can fend off light cavalry for a time, if need be."

And that's just what I've noticed in a few seconds of reading. I wonder what else has been plagiarized on this page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.44.89.96 (talk) 03:28, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]