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Archive 1

Minor League Edit

Dropped uncited and incorrect information from Kinsler's "Minor League Career" section. The text in question --among other claims -- listed Kinsler as having been ranked #11 in the minors by Baseball America. None were cited, and I was positive the eleventh rankings was incorrect.

Replaced with cited and correct information about his Baseball America prospect rankings.76.89.178.158 (talk) 19:12, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ian Kinsler/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

OK, this is my first GA review, but I've been through one myself and am quite familiar with the style requirements and such from working at FLC. So, here goes.

GA Criteria quick checklist (updated 22:06, 28 May 2009 (UTC))

  • Well-written:  Fail
Clear prose/correct spelling and grammar:  Pass
Complies with MOS:  Fail
  • Factually accurate and verifiable:  Fail
"provides references to all sources of information in the section(s) dedicated to the attribution of these sources according to the guide to layout":  Fail
"provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons":  Fail
"contains no original research":  Pass for now (though this will be easier to assess once reference formatting is fixed)
  • Broad in coverage:  Pass
  • Neutral:  Pass for now (though this will be easier to assess once reference formatting is fixed)
  • Stable:  Pass
  • Illustrated with images:  Pass
  • As a side-note to this, there is currently one image in the article of moderate quality; however, there is a Flickr user named Keith Allison with tons of fantastic-quality MLB photos, and he has an entire set of Kinsler photos licensed under Wikipedia-appropriate terms, so I would definitely consider adding some of those to this article. I will look at uploading some myself as well. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 20:12, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Update as of 18:25, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Several comments from the first tranche have yet to be addressed, and I haven't reviewed the article further because the second half may not be consistent with the first half. I've transcluded the review on to the talk page in hope of getting these issues greater exposure; however, this review will only be open for approximately one more week before it is closed. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 18:25, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Specific corrections to be made

I haven't done a full review of the entire article yet, but will put it together piecemeal as the next week goes on.

  • The first thing that absolutely must be fixed with this article is that every reference in external link format (single brackets and bare URLs) must be converted into reference format. Check all of your web references for all necessary parts (see WP:CITE). All references need to have, at minimum, the title, URL, access date, and work/publisher, if they are web sources. Using citation templates will make this a lot easier. I definitely suggest a peer review next time on an article like this before bringing it to GA, but I don't mind doing this like a peer review, because I probably would have reviewed it there anyway. This issue is of the utmost importance to get this to GA-quality. If you need an example article to look at, see the list of GA-class Baseball articles.
    'scuse me for butting in, but my toolbox includes instructions for refTools, which provides a form-based interface for coding citation templates and provides everything you need for over 95% of citations. --Philcha (talk) 20:00, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
    I certainly don't consider it butting in; I use refTools myself and it's a wonderful thing! Highly recommended. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 20:04, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Quick things that jump out at me as I skim the article:
  • If the information about his faith is important to the article (which it is if it's verifiable and so forth), then it should probably have its own section or be part of the personal section. As it is currently, it's crammed into a section about his early life; that's not a proper layout.
  • The lead is supposed to be a summary of the article. It's currently just two sentences. Expand using information from the article; summarize his most impressive career achievements to this point or any records that he holds. This is a little more difficult because this is a BLP, but look to other baseball GAs for examples.
  • Use the same tense throughout the article. Parts are written in past tense (as they should be if they happened in the past); others are written in future tense and convey a speculative tone. Consider rewording things like "It could buy him out of two years of free agency" (just an example).
  • I will help with copyediting during this review, but consider asking another editor who is a good copyeditor for input and help with this.
  • There is a lot of overlinking. I will be more specific when I come back to do a more in-depth review.
  • Get the statistics table to a stable point (end of last season), though I don't particularly like those in articles anyway.

I will return to give specific suggestions here once the reference issues are fixed; the above is just things to consider as we move forward. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 22:06, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

First tranche of comments

  • "(born June 22, 1982, in Tucson, Arizona)" - remove comma after 1982, and suggest the {{city-state}} template for Tucson, Arizona
    • My understanding per Strunk and White is that that comma must be there, and it would be error to exclude it. Please point me to the basis for your comment. Tx for the template -- never saw it before ... input it.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:17, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
      • I don't know what Strunk and White is, but it looks like a comma that serves no purpose. You can fix it another way by moving the place of birth out of the parentheses. This would be very awkward if he were to die unexpectedly because you wouldn't have place of birth and place of death in the parentheses. They are shown in the infobox and can likely be mentioned in prose. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 11:36, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
        • The comma here is quite standard, and it would be wrong to exclude it. See the Wikipedia entry for comma, which states in part: "most style manuals, including the Chicago Manual of Style[8] and the AP Stylebook,[9] recommend that the year be treated as a parenthetical, requiring a second comma after it: "Feb. 14, 1987, was the target date." I can't fathom a GA review reason to change it. Quite the opposite--if it were missing, I would expect a GA review to require it.--Epeefleche (talk) 13:33, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
          • That flies in the face of everything I learned about punctuation and grammar. However, like I said, moving the birthplace into lead text instead of the parentheses fixes this problem. Additionally, please note that the reference used to verify the Chicago requirement of the comma is misused in that article. I found the example in the AP stylebook, but it looks horribly wrong. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 16:55, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
            • What source other than your recollection of what you learned about punctuation supports a change? In addition to what I referred to, Wiki guidelines themselves point to the same construct. See [1]. I can't fathom a reason to change an entry in accord with Wiki guidelines and the premier stylebooks, on the basis of your recollection of what you learned as to puctuation. If you can point me to a Wiki guideline that suggests that this is wrong, I will be most interested. Otherwise, I suggest that we both change any constructs we happen across that are missing the comma to include it.--Epeefleche (talk) 11:19, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
              • I see nothing in that guideline (which I had already read) to support the use of the comma here. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 11:59, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
                • It uses the same format used in the article, in the wikipedia article mentioned above, and in the style guides: "If a date range is abbreviated, use the formats 5–7 January 1979 or January 5–7, 2002, with an unspaced en-dash." I have yet to see anything, on the other hand, mandating that there not be a comma following the year. Perhaps your teacher(s) were wrong? Was this at a graduate English program?--Epeefleche (talk) 15:10, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
                  • That does not reference a comma in any way. The comma shown there is to set off the final phrase. Regardless, I have been looking and haven't been able to find anything to support removing the comma, so I'll grin and bear it and just assume that all of my English teachers were idiots (a fair assumption, all things considered) after I check my Bedford Handbook when I get home from work today. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 15:21, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
  • "because he excels at hitting for average, hitting for power, baserunning skills and speed, throwing ability, and fielding prowess" - readers can learn what the five tools are by clicking on the link. Put the two references together, not separated.
  • As per the above, expand the lead significantly.
  • What makes http://athletes-celebrities.tseworld.com/sports/baseball/ian-kinsler.php a reliable source?
    • It is the company that represents him, the information it is not unduly self-serving, it does not involve claims about third parties, it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject, and there is no reasonable doubt that the subject did not actually approve it.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:38, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
  • 'and likes the attention that he generates from the Jewish community.[9]" - this reference does not support this statement
    • Actually, I believe that the reference does support the statement. The reference states, in pertinent part, "Murray Chass, a former sports columnist for The New York Times ... wondered about the propriety of all this attention that Jews shower on Jewish baseball players. So, during the recent All-Star game, he questioned two of the three Jewish players about this: Ian Kinsler and Ryan Braun. They told him they didn't mind at all. They liked it."--Epeefleche (talk) 16:10, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
  • "His father was a warden at the state prison on Tucson's Southeast Side.[6]" - as this is an opinion piece, stated in more than one place, it doesn't qualify as a reliable source
    • The writing was by Star sports columnist Greg Hansen, who has been the Star's sports columnist since 1983, and has worked at the Deseret Morning News in Salt Lake City, covered the Tampa Bay Buccaneers for the St. Petersburg Evening Independent, and been sports editor of dailies in Oregon and Utah. The reference in question is to fact, not opinion. Isn't that an appropriate source? Tx.--Epeefleche (talk) 16:10, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
  • See WP:MOSNUM: many numbers are written incorrectly, and I've just encountered the first of them. Ordinals are still subject to these rules, so "second" and "first" instead of "2nd" and "1st"
    • Question -- since this is a baseball article, isn't it the case that certain numbers need not be spelled out (e.g., the team won 3-1, not "three to one," and if that is the case where can I find the baseball-specific rules? Tx. I've made the changes, despite the question.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:38, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
      • There is not a written set of baseball-specific rules, but the numbers that are not written out are things like statistics and box scores (3–1, as you say, is a perfect example). However, all other instances should follow MOSNUM. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 11:36, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
  • All of the information on his faith should be moved to its own section under "Personal". I also don't think it's necessary to list all of those other Jewish players.
  • What makes http://www.jewishmajorleaguers.com a reliable source?
  • "Through April 15, 2009, his .295 batting average placed him 7th on the all-time list (directly ahead of Ron Blomberg) for batting average by Jewish major leaguers." - update this statistic or, more appropriately, roll it back to the end of 2008. Also, "seventh", and you repeat batting average twice in close succession
  • The entire draft and college section needs references.
  • Do not use slash notation for statistics; readers who aren't baseball experts will not know what this means.
  • Current reference #13 (minors.baseball-reference.com) doesn't verify the statistic that's sourced to it, and that paragraph needs more sources to begin with.
  • "Kinsler was named to the Midwest League all-star team at shortstop. Baseball America rated him the 11th-best prospect in the minors, the # 8 prospect in the Midwest League, and the # 9 prospect in the Texas League. Kinsler was also named the Rangers' Minor League Player of the Year." - all needs refs
  • "His solid season contributed to the Rangers' decision to trade Alfonso Soriano during the 2005-2006 offseason." - needs ref
  • The 2006 and 2007 seasons need expanding. He played entire seasons; there are entire seasons of information out there. Lots more ordinals through these sections.
This is the first group of problems to fix, as well as the referencing issues noted above. Please leave notification here when these are complete so that I can review and move forward. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 21:18, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

There needs to be a proper citation for the ref link thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joey Gallo's Homeruns (talk • contribs) 20:41, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Ian Kinsler/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

I've worked on bringing this article up to GA status, and believe that it now qualifies and would appreciate a reassessment. Thank you.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:42, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments from KV5

I tried to do the full review the first time, but will not be able to undertake it a second time. Another editor will have to do so. However, I do have some comments to be fixed right off the bat because they weren't fixed from the first nomination.

  • Slash-style statistical notation is still used throughout this article. Not everyone knows what it means; it needs to be removed.
  • This comment was addressed by clarifying the slash-style statistical notation in its first use -- see "There, Kinsler had a .335 batting average/.416 on base percentage/.536 slugging percentage, with 16 steals in 17 attempts."--Epeefleche (talk) 17:29, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. I can't think of a better way. I think this is consistent with the way we in-line link, for example, or define terms. We do it in the first instance, and presume the reader will be educated by that and not need the same explanation in later instances. Repeating it would IMHO be unneccesarily cumbersome.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:34, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Check tenses.
  • Reference formats need to be the same throughout the article; there is currently a mix of three or four different formats.
  • Done for the most part. Formats that are one-time only should all be consistent, and the more-than-one time necessarily differs but should have precisely the same info. One last troubling citation .... --Epeefleche (talk) 00:15, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
  • En-dashes in all box scores/game scores and in all year ranges.
  • Done (I believe). The one situation I could not divine the answer to was what to use in the phrase "x-for-y"; as I did not see a requirement to use something other than hyphens, I left those as hyphens.--Epeefleche (talk) 17:29, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Where em-dashes occur, they should not be spaced, ever, per WP:DASH.
  • Done (though I note that, as evidenced by dash, this does not comport with the general, more permissive rule that allows spaces). I would also point out that the template itself fails to comport with this ... see "Texas Rangers — No. 5".--Epeefleche (talk) 17:39, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
  • I actually think it looks better with the spaces -- and prefer the general rule at dash that permits it ("In practice, there is little consensus, and it is a matter of personal or house taste.").--Epeefleche (talk) 18:28, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
  • I think that actually refers to a spaced en-dash, which is perfectly fine both in printed media and here ("The Elements of Typographic Style recommends the more concise spaced en dash – like so – and argues that the length and visual magnitude of an em dash 'belongs to the padded and corseted aesthetic of Victorian typography.' However, some longstanding typographical guides such as The Chicago Manual of Style still recommend unspaced em dashes for this purpose. The Oxford Guide to Style (2002, section 5.10.10) acknowledges that this style is used by "other British publishers," but observes that Oxford University Press does not use it."). If you'd prefer a spaced en-dash, which can by rule replace an unspaced em-dash without consequence, please feel free to use it. Just make sure that you use it throughout the article. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 18:56, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
  • I know we're running far afield with this, but actually it was from a discussion at dash of em-dash. Specifically, it said: "Traditionally an em dash—like so—or a spaced em dash — like so — has been used for a dash in running text. ... However, some longstanding typographical guides such as The Chicago Manual of Style still recommend unspaced em dashes for this purpose. The Oxford Guide to Style (2002, section 5.10.10) acknowledges that this style is used by "other British publishers," but observes that Oxford University Press does not use it. In practice, there is little consensus, and it is a matter of personal or house taste." (emphasis added)--Epeefleche (talk) 19:07, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

If these are fixed before an editor undertakes a full review, it will help the article's chances a lot. Thanks. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 11:52, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments from Wizardman
Alright, I've now read the article. Overall it's very good and detailed, a big step up from what I remember when it was at GA earlier. Love the infobox picture too, great shot :). Here's what needs fixing:
  • Given the size of the article, the lead should be expanded, making sure it's basically an outline of the article itself.
  • "Kinsler has had a unique personal challenge to overcome since he was young." I don't know if I would consider asthma unique, seeing as how it affects 300 million. It'd certainly be troubling for an athlete, yes, but I'd reword.
  • "so [Kinsler] really couldn’t run like I knew he could. I’d seen him in Wichita the year before, so I knew he was a plus runner. Most people ... didn’t know that, so they probably downgraded him. But I knew it, and I wasn’t telling anybody.” The pick was later lauded as "one of the greatest 17th round picks of all time." The quotes need citations.
  • "Baseball America rated Kinsler the # 9 prospect in the Texas League." cite needed
  • Anything specifically written on why he made the shortstop to second base transition?
  • "For the season, he started 31 games batting seventh, 30 batting eighth, 20 batting sixth, 19 batting ninth, 12 batting second, 3 batting leadoff, 2 batting third, and 1 batting fifth." Cite needed, same for other instances in the text.
  • There are some stats thrown in that I question the significance of, they seem to just be in to be in. (i.e. times advanced from frist to third, power/speed number, etc.)
  • Will defer to you. I like them a lot, because a) I think they are important telling (though unsung ... other than by an announcer telling you "this guy is great at going from first to third) stats of those "hidden" baseball performances that many fans enjoy, and b) because he excelled in both. I think its that extra level of insight -- like his record stealing third. But I will of course defer to you. The first to third info just became available to the general public recently. The power/speed info reflect a way that he is unique, up there with only a couple of other players.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:13, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
  • "I think he just missed having an MVP year," manager Ron Washington said. "If luck is on our side and he stays healthy, he would have run away with it." Is this quote right. He seems to swap tenses a couple times.
  • "Kinsler's five strangest autograph requests have been a diaper, neck brace, yarmulke, kids' arms, and giant baseball." Cite or remove.
  • This article, as a general note, uses an awful lot of quotes. Not a big deal, but others may ask about that in the future.

Only got the minor league career done so far, will do major league soon. Wizardman 17:02, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Done, at least for now. I'll put it on hold and give you a week to finish this. Wizardman 01:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Concluding thoughts - I would still like to see the lead expanded a bit more, though it does look better. Reference and detail wise everything is good, and there's nothing that fails GAN criteria. While the quote/lead notes bug me a bit, I do acknowledge this as a GA and as such am passing it. Wizardman 19:44, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Infobox overkill

A recent discussion at WikiProject Baseball suggested limiting the infobox highlights to the following awards

  • All-Star game appearances
  • MVP or Cy Young Awards
  • World Series or playoff MVP Awards
  • Rookie of the Year Awards
  • season home run crowns
  • season batting championships
  • season RBI championships
  • Gold Glove Awards
  • Silver Slugger Awards

Given the fact that Kinsler has only played for 6 seasons, it seems to be a case of extreme fan worship rather than an encyclopedic entry.Orsoni (talk) 12:24, 3 October 2011 (UTC) There should be something to recognize leading the league in stolen bases. Also, rare accomplishments like 30-30 seasons are important.

Jewish

Ian Kinsler is in fact NOT Jewish. According to Jewish law, Judaism goes through the MOTHER, and his mother is NOT Jewish. However, I know if I edit it to say he's not Jewish, when many people think he is, and also many people think that it's a paternal thing, it'll just be changed back to saying that he is Jewish. This goes for many many other celebrities' pages. Minigoose-miller (talk) 08:27, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Im pretty sure he has openly said once or twice that he was jewish, along with Adam Sandler.Mnap25 (talk) 05:19, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Number 5

Ian Kinsler can't be number 5 on the Tigers, No. 5 is retired for Hank Greenberg. Can someone change it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.245.67.56 (talk) 14:36, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for pointing that out. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:41, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Wins Above Replacement

There is a stat on baseball reference called WAR. Even though it is a submetric stat, it could be added. It takes every part of a player into consideration. 2 would be average, 5 would be allstar worthy, and 8 + is MVP level. Should there be a category at the bottom called submetric stats? Signed by Joey Gallo's Homeruns — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joey Gallo's Homeruns (talk • contribs) 02:27, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

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