Talk:iConji

This entire article reads like an advert and should either be totally rewritten or simply deleted.

Skeljter: I hope this article isn't deleted. It could stand improvement. When it comes to purposefully invented ideograph writing systems I've only seen Blissymbols, iConji and Isotype mentioned. I think there is merit in having a record of this system here. Please don't delete it. I object. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skeljter (talk • contribs) 02:44, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

This is Kai Staats, the original inventor of iConji. I am not claiming that we should retain this due to ego or a look-at-what-I-invented mentality. Rather, as Skeljter stated, iConji was a unique and powerful influencer at its time. No, it did not become a world-leading pictographic language as I had hoped, in part because it was ahead of its time; in part because I launched it as a commercial product, not an open source community (lesson learned).

Recall that as iConji was being developed from 2009-12 by my team (with contributors in over a dozen countries), the family of emoji characters at that time could be counted on two hands (cell phone keyboards would not introduce emoji for years to come). Google Translate had launched its first public facing prototype (long before AI driven translation) about the same time. We spent many years in research and development, and only in hindsight recognize how we helped shape this kind of digital communication.

The Noun Project was certainly inspired by iConji. iConji was featured in a TIME magazine article, along with international art projects and a book on pictographic languages. I met with a chimpanzee researcher who was intending to teach iConji to chimps in addition to sign language (but the university where she worked that year stopped all research, even teaching sign language).

No, iConji is not world famous. No, it didn't make millions. But it was influential and highly instrumental in helping shape what we now consider the norm, a mixture of ASCII text and images in daily communication.

As I am not suppose to directly edit nor influence Wiki pages about my own inventions (Yellow Dog Linux, 'yum', Space Analog for the Moon and Mars (SAM), iConi) I can only sit back and watch as concerns are raised and decisions are made.

I don't "need" iConji to validate what was one of my most enjoyable and involved inventions. Rather, I feel it helps establish the history of the coming of this digital communications age.

If you can help me improve the content, I will be more than pleased to assist (where I am allowed within the confines of the Wiki rules and regulations). Kaistaats (talk) 19:11, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Original Message (Feb 15, 2011)

Greeting to other Wikipedia editors. Even though I registered as an editor some months back, this will be my first attempt at actually creating a page. I'm still learning my way around, and might make some mistakes as I learn to use your format and style conventions.

Just wanted to introduce myself here. My name is Dan Heim. I'm a freelance tech writer living in New River, Arizona. I've got a few books in print, and have worked for many clients since 1999, when I retired after 30 years teaching high school physics.

In the interest of full disclosure, which is recommended in the Wikipedia guidelines to avoid any conflict of interest, I feel it necessary to admit that I do have a past connection to the topic of my first page (iConji). In early 2010 I was hired by the creator of iConji (Over the Sun, LLC) to do tech writing and help develop their vocabulary of pictographic icons (similar to Emoji, but with more depth and variety). For that I received financial compensation.

I'm no longer on their payroll (as of June 2010), iConji is a free app, it's goals are to promote cross culture communication (their slogan is "Connecting the World), and I've always wanted to contribute to Wikipedia. So I hope that doesn't qualify as a COI, but if it does, I'm sure some other editor will enlighten me.

To be honest, there is a possibility that Over the Sun, LLC might call me back into work as their product develops, and I might say "yes" or "no" depending on how busy I am with other clients. So if you stretch it, you could argue I have a COI in that sense (not like I really need them as a client). So I'm trying to be as neutral and objective as possible as I write this page. It's just that I know enough about iConji that I felt qualified to try that as the topic for my first Wiki page.

Heimhenge (talk) 22:11, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

New Message (March 1, 2011)

I see that Ukexpat has added tags questioning both "notability" and "verifiability" to the iConji article. I'm not sure I understand what the problem is, but want to get it right (this is my first article). Regarding the "notability" issue, the first three external links are all from reliable sources, based on Wikipedia's explanation of "reliable."

Regarding the "verifiability" issue, and again based on Wikipedia's own guidelines, it would seem to me that those same three external links also establish "verifiability."

There must be some subtle point I'm missing here, since Ukexpat took the trouble to object. Please explain what else I might need beyond what I already have. Thanks!

Heimhenge (talk) 21:19, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

New Message (March 2, 2011)

While waiting for a response from Ukexpat (or anyone) I decided to see what I could do to increase the "notability" aspect of the article. I'm planning to add an "info box" similar to what was done in the Blissymbols article. Been exchanging some emails with OTS, who claims they have "over 3000 users" already. Still waiting for some additional info.

Heimhenge (talk) 19:31, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

You should cite those external links if you want to use them to demonstrate notability, similarly if they verify statements made in the article. At the moment they are just a list of links with nothing to directly connect them to the article's text. Hope this helps. – ukexpat (talk) 03:03, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, used two of those External Links for inline citations, following your advice. Unsure what to do about that External Link from golem.de, as the original is written in German, and I understand that Wikipedia advises against citing references written in other languages. I can read it using Google Translate, and also possibly cite it, but I'd like to get some more advice from you on whether that's better not done? Thanks. Heimhenge (talk) 18:44, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually that's not true, English sources are preferred but there is no prohibition against non-English sources provided they meet the reliability requirements. – ukexpat (talk) 20:04, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I think that should do it, ukexpat. I've taken 4 of those External References and used them for inline citations where relevant, including that one in German. Really appreciate your guidance. Like I said, this is my first article and I had much to learn. Did I handle that German citation correctly, providing the translated source name, and noting the article itself is in German? Also, did I use the correct format for citation #6? I couldn't find any tips in the help files regarding "phone interviews" as a source, so I used the MLA citation style guide. I did ask for, and received, permission from Staats to use his quote in this article. Thanks again. Heimhenge (talk) 16:46, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

New Message (March 8, 2011)

Still waiting for feedback from ukexpat, but decided I'd followed his instructions to the point where I could remove the two tags at the top of the article. The inline citations certainly establish bot notability and verifiability. If anyone disagrees, please enlighten me on where I went wrong. Thanks.
Would also still appreciate feedback on these questions:

Did I handle that German citation correctly, providing the translated source name, and noting the article itself is in German?
Did I use the correct format for citation #6? I couldn't find any tips in the help files regarding "phone interviews" as a source, so I used the MLA citation style guide. I did ask for, and received, permission from Staats to use his quote in this article.

Heimhenge (talk) 04:52, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

New Message (March 10, 2011)

I added what I believe will be the final section (Examples) to this article, following the example of the Blissymbols page on Wikipedia. I realize that an article is never really "done" on Wikipedia, but I think that's all I can contribute at this point. Perhaps someone else will take it from here?

The examples were chosen to show additional interesting features of the iConji language and syntax. All the iConji characters were uploaded as "computer icons" using the Fair Use license. They are not replaceable by existing free content. I seriously doubt that OTS (the copyright holder) will object to their use in any case. If anyone thinks it might be necessary, I could probably get a release from OTS and move these to the Commons, but I don't think that will be required.

I should also note that I centered the captions under all the icon images. I've read that, on Wikipedia, captions are always left adjusted. I did that on the screen shot image, but it seemed much more aesthetically pleasing to center the captions on those (small) icon images. I also think it reads more easily.

Heimhenge (talk) 20:46, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

New Message (March 11, 2011)

Well, I thought I was done. But I decided to ass multiple examples for the possible responses to the "coffee at 4?" message. My first attempt generated too much white space, which Wikipedia discourages. After a fair amount of trial and error, I finally figured out how to create a table, the cells of which contain both galleries and text. If anyone thinks this format will create issues with some browsers, please feel free to edit or advise on a better format.

Heimhenge (talk) 22:10, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

New Message (March 21, 2011)

Here again, I thought I was done, but recently became aware that iConji had actually launched their Artist Community program whereby users can create and submit their own characters for inclusion in the vocabulary. Added a few more citations as well. Still hoping I'm doing these "website citations" correctly, as I see them in different formats in other Wikipedia articles. Any suggestions regarding these website citations, please let me know. Thanks!

Heimhenge (talk) 18:37, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

New Message (March 31, 2011)

The symbols for "Thank" and "Love" identical. They're the two purple symbols in the last two rows of the app illustration. How could anyone be using this tool without noticing that? --Rick MILLER (talk) 21:57, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

This is only one example of duplicate characters being used for different meanings. There are many others. It's not really a problem, according to OTS (the creator of iConji), as the meaning will be clear based on context. Also, if anyone wants to create a "better" (unique) character for any meaning, they are allowed to do so. Heimhenge (talk) 20:27, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

New Message (October 3, 2011)

I will soon be undoing the edits that removed the graphic icons from this page. It's not really clear to me why they were removed, since I claimed "fair use" when I uploaded them and had to specify a license. Further, I had the written permission of the copyright holder. Do I need to provide a copy of this permission to someone in Wikipedia? Heimhenge (talk) 20:31, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Removed "citation needed" edit

Saw that my assertion about inflections was being challenged in the section of the same name. Added what I think was needed to justify that assertion. Couldn't find any comments from whoever did that "citation needed" back in November of 2011, so perhaps we'll engage here if you still have any issues with that assertion.````

Removed "citation needed" edit

Saw that my assertion about inflections was being challenged in the section of the same name. Added what I think was needed to justify that assertion. Couldn't find any comments from whoever did that "citation needed" back in November of 2011, so perhaps we'll engage here if you still have any issues with that assertion.Heimhenge (talk) 20:49, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

@Heimhenge: - If you want someone to see and reply to something you're writing on a talk page, mention them in the format {{ping|User name}} and sign it the way you usually do (which I'm doing in this reply). That will send them a notification. Otherwise they won't get one unless the page is on their watchlist. For example, if you had linked your mention of ukexpat in § #New Message (March 8, 2011), they would have been notified of the mention and been more likely to see it and reply. --Thnidu (talk) 13:40, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Restored orginal UI screencap image

As the original creator of this article I was contacted by Kai Staats (developer of iConji and Principal of OTS) to restore the original image used when the article was written. Without the full UI image the explanation provided in the Implementation section makes little sense. The original image was replaced by a cropped version in 2016 by User:Kwamikagami for no apparent reason that I could discover. The original image had been deleted by a media bot because it was no longer in use anywhere on Wikipedia, so I re-uploaded it with the same license as the other iConji images. Heimhenge (talk) 17:20, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

I did it because I figured the article was about the icons, not the gui. I probably thought it looked like an advert. — kwami (talk) 19:28, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. I looked around but couldn't find the reason it had been changed. I understand your concern about it looking like an "ad" but that full image is required for the Implementation section to make sense. And yes, the icons are indeed the core ideas, but in order to construct a sentence you need the full GUI. It's part of the system. FYI, that cropped image wouldn't open in the Media Viewer. Said it was corrupted. My replacement opens fine. Heimhenge (talk) 22:43, 18 July 2018 (UTC)