Talk:Hyderabad massacres

Please attached the proof

kindly attached the automatic source of your information that Indian soldiers had done such brutal act. 223.233.87.183 (talk) 20:01, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

If This was Pakistani Propaganda then first BBC wouldn't have put it up as you mentioned and Second Every Pakistani News Outlet and State Backed Media would full it to 5 gear and roar it every year as mourning which hasn't happened. Around 99% of Pakistanis don't even know about this and If it really was propaganda as you suggest then We would had Pakistani Media blasting us with it.

Yours Respectfully Special:Contributions/ ([[User talk:|talk]]) 13:22, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Please find the proof as in below links. If you google it you can find more proofs which can prove that this is false and misleading information,

[[[by HM Hon Sardar Patel to Nizam]]]

https://cdn.thewire.in/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/16181158/IMG_20220915_160641.jpg

https://twitter.com/kishanreddybjp/status/1173842801928241152/photo/1

https://www.thejaipurdialogues.com/itihasa/razakars-and-the-tragedy-of-brahmin-genocide/

Pakistani propaganda report

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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You would notice that I have removed the {{unreliable source?}} for the BBC News article on the Sunderlal Report. I had forgotten why this tag was added back in 2017 and had to refresh my memory. It was because the BBC News had put up the fake Pakistani propaganda version of the report in its image. The write-up was fine, but the image was that of the fake report. (BBC has now fixed the image.)

The Pakistani version still exists. It has been printed in full in Omar Khalidi's book. It starts with the paragraph:

Before the Military Action (i.e., before 13 September 1948) the general situation in the state was peaceful. However, in the districts of Nalgonda and Warangal the Communists were active, and the Razakars (volunteers belong to the MIM) were involved in crimes in the villages bordering Indian provinces such as in Nanded and Aurangabad. Instances of murder and kidnapping were rare....

The real report says nothing of the sort. Somebody just cooked up whatever they wanted to say, and produced a report look-alike to fool the world. I suppose this will remain as a perennial proof of the kind of games Pakistan plays.

The real report was published for the first time in the 2014 book of Noorani. He got the original from the Nehru Memorial Museum and Library, which is the only copy known to exist. Since it wasn't a government report there were no copies anywhere else, except perhaps with the authors and Sardar Patel (who was the other recipient of the report).

The reason I am bringing this up now is that William Dalrymple apparently used the same fake report in his book. The book is being cited and sourced in the article:

• Dalrymple, William (2004) [1998]. "Under the Char Minar". The Age of Kali: Indian Travels and Encounters. pp. 210. ISBN 9780143031093.

Should we get rid of it? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 02:32, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Support removal of Dalrymple. He is far from an expert in this area. And, the error is obvious. TrangaBellam (talk) 15:16, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

This is just another balatant attempt to cover up the atrocities committed in Hyderabad during annexation. Terming whatever comes against 'Pakistani propaganda' is totally unfair but it has been normalised on Wikipedia over the years. I think some neutral editors should look into this. Pinging Fowler&fowler... USaamo ^(t@lk) 12:47, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

It's very regrettable that nothing was done about this and that Kautilya3's tendentious edits were allowed to go into effect, not just here but also at Hyderabad massacres. The result is an article that severely downplays the extent of the atrocities, and in fact even blames the victims for the crimes committed against them— as an example of the latter, over the course of several years Kautilya3 and pals have slowly wittled down the "Goals" in the infobox of Hyderabad massacres to just two things, one of which is "Retributive violence", which uncritically reproduces the Hindutva apologetic that "the Muslims had it coming" while ignoring the vast body of scholarship that challenges this assertion. Can you imagine if the article for The Holocaust or even WWII claimed that German violence was "retributive"? They have also conspired to remove categorization of the events as genocide, even though multiple reliable sources have made this claim.

Pinging again @USaamo and @Fowler&fowler— both these articles are genocide-apologetic travesties as currently written. Brusquedandelion (talk) 01:49, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Would you be ok as dismissing the report by the Indian government as "pro-Indian propaganda"? Does the Wikipedia article on The Holocaust dismiss Allied estimates of the death toll as "Allied propaganda"? I can't think of any other instances where estimates reckoned by the very government responsible for the atrocities (the Indian government) are somehow taken as inherently more reliable than those of other countries, even "enemy" countries. Brusquedandelion (talk) 01:52, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

It was because the BBC News had put up the fake Pakistani propaganda version of the report in its image. The write-up was fine, but the image was that of the fake report. (BBC has now fixed the image.)

This is the earliest version of the BBC article on the Wayback Machine. You will note that the image it has of the report is the same one that is on the current, live version of the article.

Notably, a verbatim copy of the exact same text as in the image can be found in the version of the report published in Appendix 14 of Noorani's book:

[...]overtook the remaining eight. Out of these again the worst sufferers have been the districts of Osmanabad, Gulburga, Bider and Nander, in which four the number of people killed during and after the police action was not less, if not more than 18,000. In the other four districts viz. Aurangabad, Bir, Nalgunda and Medak those who lost their lives numbered at least 5 thousand.

 

We can say at a very conservative estimate that in the whole state at least 27 thousand to 40 thousand people lost their lives during and after the police action.

So exactly what are you referring to? Can you provide an archived version of the BBC article that references the fake version of the report in any way?

Also, even if it were true that the BBC had commited this error initially, if they fixed the image, as you claim, how exactly does it remain an unreliable source? Especially given that you removed the citation even in places where it was used without reference to the image at all? Brusquedandelion (talk) 09:08, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Deja Vu

An IP editor has come and reinstated this occurrence of the data from the "Pakistani propaganda report", claiming, Undoing the unoffical toll as the source is Communist Party of India and not Pakistani. That doesn't matter. I have called it "Pakistani propaganda report" because it was published in Pakistan, claiming it to be "Sunderlal Report". The entire report was included in Omar Khalidi's book, who believed that it was genuine. BBC has also reproduced fragments from it on its website, though it has now removed it.

The actual citation that appears in that infobox entry:

• Dam, Abhirup (2015-09-17). "Hyderabad 'Liberation' Day? The Price Was 27,000 Massacred". TheQuint. Retrieved 2023-02-03.

does not mention the 200,000 figure at all. So this entry appear with a WP:FAKE citation.

@RegentsPark and Vanamonde93:, can you please semi-protect this page? It gets periodically vandalised by socks and drive-by IP editors, and we are having to spend enormous amounts of time cleaning up all over again! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:40, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi protected for 2 weeks. Anonymous IP, please discuss your content changes on the talk page. --RegentsPark (comment) 16:43, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

hello , you said that my stuff wasn't sourced also you say its pakistani propaganda when it isn't BBC is a british source and other sources on the topic are from India. This topic has barely any coverage in pakistan,but here am gonna provide all the sources for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyderabad_massacres

sources:

https://muslimmirror.com/eng/the-first-genocide-of-muslims-in-independent-india-is-celebrated-each-year-on-september-17/

The largest concentration of Hyderabadi Muslims is in the old city of Hyderabad. After the Partition of India and the Incorporation of Hyderabad by India, the Muslims of the state lost their privileged status, so significant numbers chose to migrate to other countries such as Pakistan, the Arab States of the Persian Gulf, the United States, UK, Canada and Australia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyderabadi_Muslims#Demographics_and_distribution

https://frontline.thehindu.com/other/of-a-massacre-untold/article64757633.ece

https://eprints.lse.ac.uk/32805/1/Sherman_Integration_princely_state_2007.pdf 39.43.141.153 39.43.141.153 (talk) 14:42, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Please provide the best source you have for the 200,000 number, and we can discuss it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:58, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

I didn't said 200,000 was real nor right but a estimate from unoffical sources as listed in the page.

This is a Indian Source even though its from a Indian Muslim

In the name of “Police Action”, there was looting, arson, murder, and rape of Muslims on a very large scale on the 17th and 18th of September 1948 in the princely state of Hyderabad. This continued for several days without the world knowing it was the first Muslim genocide in independent India. It is estimated that more than 200 thousand Muslims were done to death in the genocide. In terms of percentage, some 20% of the Muslim male population lost their life in 3 days of police action against the Hyderabad state.

https://muslimmirror.com/eng/the-first-genocide-of-muslims-in-independent-india-is-celebrated-each-year-on-september-17/

You can contact the editor 39.43.141.153 (talk) 14:28, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

When you restore deleted content, it becomes your responsibility and you need to justify it.

This source is indadequate for the content because a WP:NEWSORG and it can only be used for news, not history. Moreover the article is an opinion-column, and it is not even good for news. Finally Muslim Mirror appears to a community newspaper, not a mainstream news organisation. That is a further reason why it cannot be taken at face value. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:03, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

I have with relevant sources and Its our job to address all opinions and I put the 200,000 Figure as a UnOffical Number and added the estimated deaths of Indians and Number of Communists killed by the CPI. 39.43.142.194 (talk) 10:00, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

I would like you to contact me soon and provide reply to my claim, If you don't provide one by satursday then I will revert my data? 39.43.142.194 (talk) 15:37, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Its been more then satursday and its sunday today so am reverting it but you can revert it back and we can talk on the topic, Like educated scholars 39.43.145.241 (talk) 06:23, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

No WP:CONSENSUS reached. You don't seem to understand what you are supposed to be doing here. I asked for your best source, which turns out to be badly inadequate. Do you have any better sources? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:16, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

https://thewire.in/film/how-the-movie-razakar-silent-genocide-of-hyderabad-sets-out-to-distort-history

source for the communist deaths and I have said that the figure 200,000 is a unoffical estimate then a offical one as is 27,000-40,000 was by Indian Goverment and Goverments intend to lower the numbers as Pakistan only claims that 26,000 were killed in 1971 when the number is between 200,000-600,000 39.43.151.156 (talk) 21:04, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

I still don't see a source for the 200,000 number. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:18, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

In the name of “Police Action”, there was looting, arson, murder, and rape of Muslims on a very large scale on the 17th and 18th of September 1948 in the princely state of Hyderabad. This continued for several days without the world knowing it was the first Muslim genocide in independent India. It is estimated that more than 200 thousand Muslims were done to death in the genocide. In terms of percentage, some 20% of the Muslim male population lost their life in 3 days of police action against the Hyderabad state. https://muslimmirror.com/eng/the-first-genocide-of-muslims-in-independent-india-is-celebrated-each-year-on-september-17/ 39.58.148.205 (talk) 15:55, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

I will give Kautilya3 a little while longer to respond to this, but if not I will be restoring it. Brusquedandelion (talk) 07:42, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

When you restore deleted content, it becomes your responsibility and you need to justify it.

The justification is simple: it isn't Pakistani propaganda.

What is asserted without evidence (by you) can be dismissed without evidence. Brusquedandelion (talk) 07:41, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Dismissing this report as "Pakistani propaganda" is absolutely absurd. Is there any other context where this would fly? Do we dismiss Allied tallies of the death toll in Holocaust as "Allied propaganda"? There are specific problems with the IP editor's edits, but the solution is not to let these sorts of Hindutva apologetic claims be aired uncritically. Brusquedandelion (talk) 07:39, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

This data is from the same report, whatever you want to call it. There is nothing to do here. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:39, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Really, there is nothing to do here? After you reverted my edit, which reverted your edit, which was entirely based on you dismissing a report as "Pakistani propaganda"? I'm reintroducing the line you deleted unless you have a better argument than "[country I don't like] was involved". Brusquedandelion (talk) 08:04, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Muslim Mirror is not a WP:HISTRS. In a contentious topic like this, you need high-quality sources. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:51, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Kautilya3 has also ravaged the kashmir massacres article and other such when I was reviewing his edits GamerHashaam (talk) 07:53, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

This is very ridiculous to read this kind of fasle and misleading information with the fasle references by books written by notorious muslims only. This narrative is being set becasue now muslim religious people are being scared as being exposed from all directions of the world. On this earth as whole world know the most inhuman religion is only one and that is Islam so this fasle narrative will not work. Coz the truth is excatly opposite, that mostly Hindus were suffered due to radical muslims. As an example here for false narrative can be taken as for hyderbad massacre... From November 1947 to August 1948, the Indian government repeatedly demanded that the Nizam of Hyderabad disband the Razakars, a private militia that opposed Hyderabad's integration into India. The Nizam refused, and the Razakars killed thousands of peasants and common people. On September 7, 1948, Jawaharlal Nehru gave the Nizam an ultimatum to ban the Razakars and return Indian troops to Secunderabad. After the death of Jinnah on September 11, Nehru launched the Indian Army's "Police Action" invasion of Hyderabad on September 13, 1948. The Razakars were the main resistance to the Indian Army, but eventually the Nizam surrendered and agreed to disband the group. So it very mush clear that These ruling razakar were massacaring the Hindus only and nothing was done to muslims.. DO not make yourself more ridiculous with your own soul when you also know the truth so stop generating false information and come out of darkness in your mind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vsmar711 (talk • contribs) 08:24, 28 April 2024 (UTC)