Talk:Hvar (town)

Move to Hvar (city)?

Croatian language does not differentiate between "city" and "town": it's all grad. I don't see how a settlement with pop. 4000 can be construed as a "city", regardless of how it is designated in Croatia(n). GregorB (talk) 11:45, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, if its opposed, naturally you should revert the move. The designation "grad" is translated "city", so I moved accordingly. There's really no technical definition distinguishing a "city" from a "town", the designation "city" is often founded on "administrative, legal, or historical status based on local law". Hvar qualifies without a doubt, and local law calls it "grad". An ancient center, its historical status is second only to Zadar and Split in Dalmatia (with the exception of the Republic of Ragusa).

However, I suppose this is arbitrary on my part... not every other "grad" could qualify as a "city", and we have no real criteria on wi+hich to differentiate, so I wouldn't be opposed to the revert :P The infobox, on the other hand, I wouldn't alter.

Nice work on the article, btw :) --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 11:57, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! On the town vs city designation, I'm not sure it's important which label we apply, though it would be nice to be consistent! Historically, within the UK, the designation of city was partly based on the existence of a cathedral - i.e. the place was the center of a diocese. Also on the importance of the place, and whereas Hvar is very small for a city, it has been an independent commune, and was an important hub of activity for many years. However, although it may have qualified for city status at the height of its powers, I'd have to say it would probably have been down-graded again by now! In the U.S., the terms are used pretty much interchangeably, so the City Council may meet in the Town Hall! And it's not so much the population size that counts, it's the existence of an administrative centre. Farscot (talk) 21:10, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

The problem of course, is that Croatian does not differentiate between a "town" and a "city". The word "grad" (as in Grad Hvar) can refer to both London, Reading, and Butt Creek, USA :). The only distinction is made between a "grad" (city or town), and a "selo" (village). So when we say "Grad Hvar", its completely up to the English translator to decide whether that means "City of Hvar" or "Town of Hvar". This really is a dilemma, because without any established criteria we can't really say what Hvar is... Its completely arbitrary. Population seems to be irrelevant... --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 22:19, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

The label of "town" or "city" seems to be really a legal status relative to the country where it is located. What central funding it has access to, limited liability for government representatives, etc. So, my feeling is that in the UK, Hvar would be called a town, but in the U.S. would be an incorporated city. Being in Croatia, it would seem to be down to an issue of prestige? Farscot (talk) 22:33, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

The problem here of course, is that we have to distinguish between the island and the urban centre somehow! Farscot (talk) 22:46, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Re:"Being in Croatia, it would seem to be down to an issue of prestige?"

I honestly have no idea... In Croatia, "city" and "town" are one and the same thing - "grad" :). There is no locally established way to differentiate between the two... Either we find some professional guy who deals with this issue, or we establish a criteria... Split and Zagreb are "grad", but so is Imotski. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 00:18, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Maybe we should go with what each individual "grad" calls itself? The official Grad Hvar website says "City of Hvar" Farscot (talk) 00:48, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Heh, I'm afraid all "grad"s probably call themselves "cities"... even those settlements that by no means fit even the general idea of what a "city" is (little prestige or "city" tradition, small population, dispersed, primitive infrastructure, etc)... *sigh* This isn't going to be easy if its to be resolved once and for all. I starting to think this should be brought-up on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Croatia.

My own arbitrary opinion is that "city" fits Hvar far better than "town", in light of its tradition and culture. If I recall, the city's medieval theatre is actually hailed as the first city theatre open to the general public. Maybe an exaggerated claim, but still... --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 01:36, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I can see a good case for calling Hvar a city, based on its past. But I'm not convinced it really matters, one way or the other. Now, the theatre claim as I understand it, is for being the first "communal" (as in, belonging to a commune), as opposed to privately owned theatre. There were plenty public theatres in London in Shakespeare's day (late 1500s), surely? Farscot (talk) 02:01, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure myself now: AFAIK, in Croatia a settlement qualifies as grad if it's large enough (by population), but its history of urbanization matters too - so an argument for Hvar as grad and hence city makes sense. If native English speakers find this description correct (i.e. not misleading), then I guess it's OK. GregorB (talk) 07:59, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Have a look at the City of Bastrop, Texas. "City of Hvar" shouldn't be too misleading at any rate. Should we take this to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Croatia? --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 09:18, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I think that "City of Hvar" is in keeping with the historical importance of this place, and shouldn't confuse English speakers. That's not to say that city would automatically be the best translation of "grad" in all cases. Farscot (talk) 23:48, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Hvar (town)/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

==December 2012== A nicely developed article that currently meets all WP:BCLASS criteria, except #2 (referencing). Coverage is the article's strongest side: it probably has everything that is needed for a Good article. Does it actually have too much? Some of the content might naturally go to Hvar. The "Municipality" section is perhaps awkwardly placed. It might work as a paragraph in the Geography section. Referencing is not bad, but needs to be strengthened if the article was to go for GA. The "Economy" section is unreferenced, which fails the article in the B class checklist. Use of bold style in the Architecture section should be reconsidered in light of MOS:BOLD. Very good overall, not too far from GA standard. I'd personally like to see this article improved in that direction. GregorB (talk) 01:12, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Last edited at 01:12, 27 December 2012 (UTC). Substituted at 18:33, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Original Italian names of famous people from Hvar

GIOVANNI LUCIO

Born in September 1604 in Traù, Dalmatia. Italian historian. Last surviving male member of the noble Lucio family, of ancient Roman origin. Studied letters at a seminary in Rome. Graduated in ecclesiastical and civil law from the University of Padua. Member of the Municipal Council of Traù. Oversaw the fortification of Traù during the War of Candia against the Turks in 1646. Oversaw the construction of a new altar in the Cathedral of San Lorenzo in Traù and a reliquary ark to house the relics of St. Giovanni Orsini of Traù. Returned to Rome in 1654.

Giovanni Lucio identified Dalmatian as an Italian language in the preface to his book “History of Dalmatia” (Historia di Dalmatia), also called “Historical Memories of Traù” (Memorie istoriche di Tragurio ora detto Traù), published in 1674:

(“Avendo io, Giovanni Lucio, figlio di Pietro... mi sono valso dell'antica lingua romana che tra letterati di diverse nationi è comune. Hora, dovendo scrivere le Memorie di Traù mia Patria, ho voluto valermi della moderna o volgare, che non più italiana che Dalmatina può dirsi; onde havendo havuto riguardo solamente d'usar parole, che siano intese da Dalmatini, sarò scusato se non scriverò Toscanamente.”)

translation

“I, Giovanni Lucio, son of Pietro... I value the ancient Roman language [Latin], which today is common among writers of different nations. But while writing the history of my homeland Traù, I wanted to use the modern vernacular. Although I used some Dalmatian words, it can be said that Dalmatian is just as Italian as Tuscan, so please excuse me if I do not write in perfect Tuscan style.”

https://brbl-dl.library.yale.edu/vufind/Record/4693281

PIETRO ETTOREO

pg 193 of

http://www.dalmaziaeu.it/dalmazianazione.pdf   
  

"In seguito, il cognome dell’Ettoreo viene slavizzato in Hektorovich. Muore a Lesina nel marzo del 1572"

translation

" Afterwards, the surname Ettoreo was slavicized in Hektorovich. He dies in Hvar in March 1572"

Other

https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=p85jAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA331&lpg=PA331&dq=pietro+ettoreo&source=bl&ots=vjBloxrzec&sig=ACfU3U0aD6JTMBQp6Bs_rdsaZnLU5Vjakw&hl=mi&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwioyJnKh5PmAhUd73MBHdLHCKgQ6AEwBnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=pietro%20ettoreo&f=false

MARTINO BENEDICTIS Came from the Benedictis family (Ragusa)

MARINO GAZZARI https://www.geni.com/people/Marino-Gazzari/6000000022627750028

≈ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magnagr (talk • contribs) 00:28, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Na boi. They all declared themselves as croats.Hanibali Lucić literally titled his translations as "... brought to our croatian language".So please stop your italian POV pushing,idk what croatia ever did to u lol SerVasi (talk) 23:00, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

You are offending the history of your country by denying the truth. Romance population pre-dated of 1000 years any croatian settlement in Dalmatia.

Add to it the venetian presence that shaped every aspects of Hvar for many centuries. As demonstrated all the people mentioned was of latin/venetian/italian stock and the croatian version of their name just a recent forgery. I am just asking to have a bilingual version of the names. quite chauvinists and historically incorrect to impose only the croatian one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magnagr (talk • contribs) 23:13, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

• Comment - I don't see how the sources presented (disregarding their spurious reliability for the moment) present a case for adding Italianised versions to non-Italian names. This is not Italian Wikipedia. We don't even add such redundancies for Anglicised names -- we don't write Mumbai (Bombay), Kolkata (Calcutta), nor Yangon (Rangoon), when the unfamiliar reader can just click on the link and realise what name refers to from the parentheses in the opening sentence, if they haven't already divined that such similar forms (as e.g. Petar Hektorović and Piero Hettoreo) refer to one and the same subject.

Magnagr, I would advise you to stick to the facts and stop proffering nationalist alt-historical narrative yourself while accusing others of bad faith and nationalism. A thousand years before the latest reasonable date of Croatian settlement in Dalmatia, the region was populated by a people who would undergo decades and even centuries of very bloody conflict before agreeing to call themselves Romans. Re: which name was "original", Hektorović is a Croatian surname with a clear etymology, meaning son of Hektor (Hector). The etymology of (H)ettoreo is less obvious; "son of Ettore" would be expected to evolve into Ettori or di Ettore etc. A lone -o is a sufficiently uncommon ending for an Italian surname that it strikes me as only plausible to assume that it arrived from Hektorović after the trademark Slavic ending (unexpressible in Italian orthography) was removed, your irredentist source notwithstanding. Daß Wölf 16:22, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

It is quite insulting to call someone irredentist, fascist or nationalist just because he wants to offer a different perspective with sourced material.

This is the english section of Hvar (city), no the croatian one. We should evaluate what the original name of those people was and not just conclude that since Hvar is now in Croatia they should only have the croatian version of their names.

Giuseppe Tartini, the famous violinist, was born in Pirano/Piran, nowadays Slovenia. Neither in the english article nor in the Slovenian one his name his changed in Jozef Tartinic. Tartini is not defined as a slovenian artist. He is considered italian even if Italy did not exist as a State when he died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Tartini

https://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Tartini

The surnames Shakespeare or Moliere will not be chinesized in case China will invade and occupy UK or France one day in 2100 AD!

Population of the coastal towns of Dalmatia was not just made up of romanized Illyrian but also of latin colonists. They did not just bring war but also civilization and however 1000 years is more than enough to fully integrate another population into the dominating culture (latin). When Croatians arrived in Dalmatia there was not such a thing like Illyrian civilization but only latin civilization! About warmongering attitude, it is worth remembering that Epidaurum remained a Roman-Italic city until the 7th century AD, when it was destroyed by the Avars and the Slavs. The surviving Roman inhabitants of the city fled to the nearby island of Lausa, where they took refuge and founded the city of Ragusa (today called “Dubrovnik”). The same fate happened to many others roman towns located in Dalmatia.

It is easy debunk your reconstruction regarding the genesis of the Ettoreo surname. The Ettoreo family came from the roman city of Aquileia (Friuli-Italy). From Aquileia came most of the families that founded the city Venice.

There is a palace that belonged to the Ettoreo family in Sacile (Friuli-Italy), village that was called "the garden of La Serenissima". Hvar and Sacile were part of "La Serenissima". The so called Hectorovic were not Croatians!!!

http://www.visitsacile.it/en/art-history-faith/architecture/palazzo-ettoreo/

Cheers — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magnagr (talk • contribs) 19:44, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

I didn't call you irredentist, I called your source irredentist. While you take your umbrage, consider how insulting it was when you called other editors above "chauvinist" and "historically incorrect" and accused them of "offending the truth" all the while depending for your information on a book by mayor of the "Free Comune of Zadar in Exile", Renzo de' Vidovich. Daß Wölf 13:58, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Beyond cultural influences, Venice had legal legitimacy to own Dalmatia since King Ladislaus of Naples (another Italian city) sold Dalmatia to Venice in 1409. You got Dalmatia from Austria which, together with France, invaded and dismembered the territories belonging to the Republic of Venice (Treaty of Campo Formio). Basically, Croatia owns Dalmatia because of and after an act of aggression. Zadar during the struggle for Italian unification was the first Dalmatian town uprising against the Austrians in 1848 and adopting the italian flag. So who you call irredentist maybe is just the descendant of people who had all the right to rule and live in their ancestral homeland. If one day serbians would conquer Zagreb and expel all its native inhabitants I would not call croatians in exile remembering the croatian identity of Zagreb as irredentists..... Magnagr (talk) 21:58, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

"Irredentism is any political or popular movement that seeks to claim or reclaim and occupy a land that the movement's members consider to be a "lost" (or "unredeemed") territory from their nation's past." ... "Italian Fascism is based upon Italian nationalism and in particular seeks to complete what it considers as the incomplete project of Risorgimento by incorporating Italia Irredenta (unredeemed Italy) into the state of Italy. (Aristotle A. Kallis: Fascist ideology: territory and expansionism in Italy and Germany)

If there's any doubt to what I'm referring to, de' Vidovich was the secretary of Movimento Sociale Italiano. Are you arguing for that point of view? Daß Wölf 14:08, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

So, Italy cannot have a right wing party? Movimento Sociale Italiano no longer exists. In Italy if you proclaim yourself fascist you end up in jail and the creation of any fascist party is forbidden by the Italian Constitution.

XII

It shall be forbidden to reorganise, under any form whatsoever, the dissolved Fascist party. Notwithstanding Article 48, the law has established, for not more than five years from the implementation of the Constitution, temporary limitations to the right to vote and eligibility for the leaders responsible for the Fascist regime.

Maybe you should look at your recent past instead:

"The estimated loss of up to six million dead is founded too much on both emotional, biased testimonies and on exaggerated data in the postwar reckonings of war crimes and on the squaring of accounts with the defeated".

"Thank god my wife is neither a Serb nor a Jew".

Franjo Tuđman — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magnagr (talk • contribs) 20:11, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Provision XII predates MSI's dissolution by decades, which says something about its effectiveness (if you're going to claim that MSI was just "a right wing party", there's quite a few sources waiting for you on the party's WP article). On the other side, Nazism and fascism were banned from Croatian politics in a somewhat more effective manner after 1945.

As for your claims about Tuđman -- be they true or not -- they're irrelevant here. Neither of us quoted nor drew information from any of Tuđman's works (as opposed to de Vidović). Daß Wölf 21:06, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

The fact that no Italian politician asked Croatia to introduce bilingual denomination of the coastal towns and islands of Dalmatia - names in romance languages that were used all along the history of those places and that were only recently transformed into Croatian - as a condition to let Croatia enter the EU, proves that in Italy not only there is no fascist party but also no moderate right wing party....

“All the commands, the military authorities and their dependants together with the civil authorities, will use Croat names instead of the Italian names hitherto used in referring to places in Dalmatia: Zadar instead of Zara, Tijesno instead of Stretto, Trogir instead of Trau, Split instead of Spalato, Omis instead of Almissa, Dubrovnik instead of Ragusa, Ston instead of Stagno, Kotor instead of Cattaro, Budva instead of Budua, Perast instead of Perasto, Sibenik instead of Sebenico, Skradine instead of Scardona, Solin instead of Salona, Vis instead of Lissa, Opuzen instead of Fort'Opus, Cavtat instead of Ragusa Vecchia, Ercegnovi instead of Castelnuovo, Tivat instead of Teodo, Risan instead of Risano. The Command Headquarters hitherto called Cattaro will be called Kotor. For the naming of the other districts of Dalmatia a list of official names will contain the necessary explanations. To avoid confusion and misunderstanding the names which have up to the present been used will be printed in brackets up to June 30th, 1917. After that these names within brackets shall be omitted.”

Austrian General Staff in July, 1916. (Signed) Conrad.

By this official declaration even the Austrian authorities acknowledge that up to 1916 the people of Dalmatia had not thought of Croatising their place-names and that they could not recognise the Croat names unless the Italian names accompanied them. Magnagr (talk) 23:57, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

You're again making an argument not supported by your own source. Daß Wölf 17:06, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

What argument did I make? Just open a history book, it is easy.

Dalmatia --> from 2 BC to 9 AD latin coastal towns--> 9 AD the latins of Dalmatia met slavic people (pirates) just arrived from central Europe--> 1000 AD as a result of this encounter the latin coastal towns of Dalmatia voluntarily subject themselves to Venice--> 1000 AD - 1409 AD struggle between Venice and Hungary, in which Croatia is embedded, to rule Dalmatia --> 1409 Venice acquires and rules Dalmatia till 1797 AD--> 1797 AD France invades and steals territories legally owned by the Republic of Venice--> 1815 the territories stolen from the Republic of Venice are given to Austria--> 1815 Austria maintains the italian identity of Dalmatia till 1866. -->........--> 1991 territories stolen from the Republic of Venice are now called Croatia.

TOTAL= 2000 years of continuous latin/venetian/italian identity and sovereignity over Dalmatia but in 2019 Piero Ettoreo can only be called Petar Hektorović.......Magnagr (talk) 07:40, 18 December 2019 (UTC)