Talk:Humvee/Archive 2

Usage in Combat

I'm procrastinating right now or else I'd find the sources and do a change but this is hilariously wrong. The unarmored HMMWVs were always meant for front line combat use. In 2003, they were integral to the invading forces maneuverability. We rode a 998 with a 240B in a pole mount. We had consistently practiced this configuration stateside so it wasn't some new thing just to get more gun trucks in theater. The TOW HMMWVs didn't even have the light anti-rifle armor the article talks about. They had a thin metal body instead of fiberglass, but that wasn't about to stop modern small arms. I'm not even sure it would have stopped the small arms from the Vietnam era in which it was designed. Anyways it took years for the Up-Armor variants to be fielded, yet unarmored HMMWVs are given no credit in this article.Outcast95 (talk) 20:21, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Uparmouring

I was thinking that Cage_armor would be the best uparmouring for HMMWV's since the vehicle will probably already stop relatively low caliber bullets, but is mostly very vulnerable to RPG fire, which cage armor can stop; given the relatively low extra weight, it seems one of the best modifications that can be done, and I thus wonder whether it has allready been frequently used ? See also -->Mastiff, a version of the regular replacement of HMMWV's designed by the Brits (Cougar_H) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.182.56.170 (talk) 19:51, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The base HMMWV isn't armored at all, fragments and bullets go through as easily, if not easier than through a civilian car door.Wzrd1 (talk) 23:31, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

All People need to hear is Canvas Doors.Outcast95 (talk) 20:09, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Improper Naming Convention

Neither military nor civilian air, ground, sea, or submersibles are categorized in Wikipedia under "common names." You won't find the C-130 under it's common nickname, the Herk. The Hornet is listed under "McDonnell Douglas F/A-18 Hornet." The Buff is listed under "Boeing B-52 Stratofortress." The Abrams is listed under "M1 Abrams," not under the nickname "whispering death" earned during its first REFORGER exercise. The proper title should be either "High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle" or "HMMWV," possibly with "AM General" before it, and all other redirects including "Humvee" pointing to that proper title. This is an encyclopedia, not a democracy. The goal should be accuracy and not the result of some brain-dead popularity contest. I have several thousand hours driving the HMMWV, spelled "HMMWV" and pronounced "hum-vee," and my QUALIFIED opinion as both an experience HMMWV driver as well as a technical writer is that the entry should match the it's proper spelling: "HMMWV." 22:57, 18 September 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.70.164.249 (talk)

Agree, this should have the proper official name writing and not slang or street nickname which changes with time and has no place in a respectable dictionary. This is an encyclopedia so having "Humvee" listed in the introduction for search and historic/compatibility reasons is good enough. 45.50.126.137 (talk) 17:55, 24 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Question on putting down users of Chinese-made Humvees

Should we put them here or move them to the article talking about them? Ominae (talk) 01:41, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is unclear to me if the Chinese-made Humvees are produced under license (nearly identical to US ones) or are similar copies (knock-offs). Both Humvee#Overseas production and Humvee clone manufacturing in China are poorly cited. Putting their users in another article is simpler and saves space in this article. -Fnlayson (talk) 01:54, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm thinking of putting Belarus-cited articles in Humvee clone manufacturing in China since there is a source to back them up. For Zimbabwe, I need to look them up. I just don't know about the map thing since it may need to be modified again. For Humvee#Overseas production, we can just put the Humvee clone manufacturing in China link there somewhere else in the article alongside countries who actually use Humvees. That link just need to be fixed since its like its telling a story. But from what I read, the first generation-made Chinese Humvees did have some American-made parts before the Chinese were able to make their own. If anyone has no objections, I'll make the changes later. Ominae (talk) 02:29, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Called a Truck?

Why does the article keep calling the Humvee a truck when it's obviously a car? A truck by definition primarily hauls cargo. A humvee primarily transports people, hence it's a car. Malamockq (talk) 03:05, 14 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Probably because it is an off-road vehicle and is more of truck type design. -Fnlayson (talk) 21:52, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

But a truck isn't an off-road vehicle, most trucks are confined to roads. Jeep is the colloquialism that refers to most offroad vehicles, but it's a trademarked term. The only other offroad term that's in common parlance is Sports Utility Vehicle, but obviously that doesn't fit here. The only appropriate term is "car". Malamockq (talk) 16:51, 21 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No need to be so precise about this, imo. Change the truck mentions to vehicle if it bothers you so much. -Fnlayson (talk) 16:59, 21 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, it needs to be precise. Vehicle is fine with me. Malamockq (talk) 06:37, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nah, it should stay. It's a truck. That's the usual term for this class of vehicle. As for "primarily transporting people," hogwash. "Primarily transporting whatever would fit", more like it. Anmccaff (talk) 17:28, 21 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Truck, "is a motor vehicle designed to transport cargo.". A humvee is not designed to transport cargo primarily, it's a personnel transport, hence a car. Vehicle is also suitable, but truck is specifically a vehicle designed to transport cargo which this is not. Truck used here is a Wikipedia:Weasel word Malamockq (talk) 06:36, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a car, but feel free to change it to military vehicle. Green547 (talk) 15:09, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Military vehicle is fine, but why don't you think it's a car? Malamockq (talk) 16:54, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't call it a car. Over and out. Green547 (talk) 17:26, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that you wouldn't call it a car, my question is why wouldn't you call it a car? Malamockq (talk) 17:56, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No, "truck" is the usual precise descriptor for this type of thing; "vehicle" is the less precise weaseliferous choice. Cars, aircraft, boats, roller skates, buggies, simple syrup and boiled linseed oil are all "vehicles"; "truck" is the actual word used by the army to describe most members of the HMMWV family. e.g. "TRUCK, UTILITY: CARGO/TROOP CARRIER, 1-1/4 TON, 4X4, M998

(2320-01-107-7155) (EIC: BBD); M998A1 (2320-01-371-9577) (EIC: BBN)" Anmccaff (talk) 17:34, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Anmccaff, we already have two people being fine with changing it to vehicle and you reverted my changes. A humvee is not primarily designed to transport cargo, hence it's not a truck. Malamockq (talk) 17:56, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Now wait a minute. Although humvee might fit the definition of car, car is unspecific and general. If the military uses "truck" then we should use truck, I'd like clickable sources for that pls. And please stop edit warring. Green547 (talk) 18:34, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

To begin with, the HMMWV program was specifically designed to move stuff more than people, hence the "CARGO/TROOP CARRIER" designation of unspecialized models. It replaced jeeps, Goats, the very few remaining 3/4s and CUCVs, most roles were cargo or weapons carriers, not personnel. Next, the official name of each vehicle type begins with the word "Truck, 1 1/4 ton..." The NSN family is for trucks. It's managed with the...well, take a guess on that one. See: http://www.cascom.army.mil/g_staff/cdi/fdd/tc/catalog%20Jan%202014.pdf Anmccaff (talk) 19:14, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any place there where it says a HUMVEE is a truck. It uses the label truck to describe a capability, it's not describing what it is. Calling it a vehicle is already unspecific and general, but again I have no problem calling it a vehicle; however I don't think you have a very good reason against calling it a car. Calling it a truck is too specific. A truck is designed to transport cargo, and while a HUMVEE can transport cargo it's not specifically designed for that function. It can perform multiple roles, but it was primarily designed to replace the jeep and perform additional tasks, but the jeep in the first place is a car, not a truck. Since its role is "unspecific and general" we might as well describe it using something unspecific and general; vehicle is fine. Malamockq (talk) 20:56, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, takeback. I've seen "car" used in military context. But I still don't support using car. We need to look at reliable sources and oficial designations. Green547 (talk) 22:38, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So you don't have a good reason for not wanting to call it a car then. I agree with your last point, but just because they don't call it a car doesn't mean it isn't a car. Car, A car is a wheeled, self-powered motor vehicle used for transportation. Most definitions of the term specify that cars are designed to run primarily on roads, to have seating for one to eight people, to typically have four wheels, and to be constructed principally for the transport of people rather than goods.Malamockq (talk) 23:37, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A Humvee is an off-road vehicle and does not look like a regular car or serve the same role. Maybe it is time for you (and us) to just Drop the Stick here. -Fnlayson (talk) 23:47, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No! Don't make them stop! I'm hoping to add this to Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars. :) - BilCat (talk) 00:23, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

HEY! Not if I beat you to it... eh eh eh ... and anyway, I'm the one who made them stop, LOL! Cheers, Green547 (talk) 00:31, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No, I'm I'm going to add it first, and if you add it first, I'll revert you, then add it back, first. - BilCat (talk) 00:35, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Then we'll get into an edit war, Cat, eh? Oh — oh no, take that back. I guess I shouldn't argue with a user with rollback rights... argh. and anyway, I would add it FIRST! ;) Green547 (talk) 01:15, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly: An edit war over an edit war - very lame, yet it has happened! - BilCat (talk) 01:25, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

All that said, any compelling reason I shouldn't return the article to its former pristine state? As Mr. Crumb says....keep on truckin Anmccaff (talk) 05:54, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it would be edit warring, and would probably get you blocked. Try to reach a consensus here first, rather than just revert the article to what you want it to say. - BilCat (talk) 07:28, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Here we go again. I really think that we should keep the original wording until (unless) reliable sources say it's something else. We need the Army designations. That's the way to go. Green547 (talk) 13:46, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

so, should I just open this at ANI? I'd be very comfortable defending a position supported by every relevant TM in creation, and opposed by a single person's handwaving.Anmccaff (talk) 14:37, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Anmcaff, what's with the grumpy attitude? This is a very trivial matter. BilCat, don't you think there's already consensus? Green547 (talk) 21:16, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, to use vehicle, but consensus can always change. I'd rather they Drop the Stick, but discussion is better than edit warring. - BilCat (talk) 21:59, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing "grumpy" about it; I'd just like the article to reflect actual usage and official nomenclature. A use or three of vehicle is appropriate, but the actual name of this class of vehicles is "truck"; just ask the appropriate TM, or ask anyone on the street if he drives a "pickup car"...unless he means "chick magnet." Anmccaff (talk) 16:41, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

OK, it is pretty clear the Army calls it a truck, i.e. Tactical Light Truck, etc. What about sentence stating that? -Fnlayson (talk) 16:51, 5 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever a HMMV might be...

...it ain't an automobile, as Wiki defines it:

Most definitions of the term specify that cars are designed to run primarily on roads, to have seating for one to eight people, to typically have four wheels, and to be constructed principally for the transport of people rather than goods.[4][5]

It is designed primarily to work off good roads, it often has only two seats, with the remainder given to cargo, weapons, or equipment...that is to say, the driver is there to ferry things, not people. It is called by the organization that designs and uses it a "truck". The classes of vehicles it replaced were all called "trucks." The organizations that produce it are truck manufacturers, or the truck and coach divisions of general vehicle manufacturers. Anmccaff (talk) 06:19, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I changed automobile to motor vehicle. It's not a truck which is primarily designed to haul cargo. A humvee can haul cargo, but that's not its primary role. This is what a military truck looks like.. Malamockq (talk) 12:16, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Which is to say you changed it from something that was correct and precise, military light truck, to something that was sloppily weasseloid.

A motor vehicle is a self-propelled road vehicle, commonly wheeled, that does not operate on rails, such as trains or trams. The vehicle propulsion is provided by an engine or motor, usually by an internal combustion engine, or an electric motor, or some combination of the two, such as hybrid electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids. For legal purposes motor vehicles are often identified within a number of vehicle classes including cars, buses, motorcycles, off-road vehicles, light trucks and regular trucks. These classifications vary according to the legal codes of each country. ISO 3833:1977 is the standard for road vehicles types, terms and definitions. [1] Generally to avoid requiring handicapped persons from having to posess an operator's license to use one, or requiring tags and insurance, powered wheelchairs will be specifically excluded by law from being considered motor vehicles.

As of 2010 there were more than one billion motor vehicles in use in the world excluding off-road vehicles and heavy construction equipment.[2][3][4]

This is a word which covers just about everything but mopeds, trolleys, and locomotives. The only thing it tells us is that the tires probably have some rubber in or on them.

Next, you have been misleading in your description of your action, describing it not by what you changed it from, but by what you yourself had used last.

Next, I have provided easy access to the appropriate TMs that documents, and the article itself also documents, that most roles the HMMV plays are, in fact, those of militarized pickup trucks. The HMMV was, in fact, designed to replace the M880, the CUCV, the 151, the Goat, the then-vanishing M37 and M38s, some deuce-and-a-halves, and Uncle Tom Cobbley, and all. All of the vehicles it replaced but two are unambiguously light trucks, one is a medium truck, and the 151 has always been seen in the armies that use it as more truck than car, especially after sitting in one more than a couple hours.

You have provided...repetition, and a picture of a garden-variety COE with a green paint job, from an institution whose "military" history has lately centered on taking disarmed civilians on one-way rides. This isn't Lewis Carrollistan; saying something three times does not make it true. Anmccaff (talk) 14:44, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This whole dispute is just WP:ENGVAR. Americans refer to vehicles of this type as trucks, it's an American vehicle, this article is written in American English, so 'truck' is the appropriate term. I'm not American BTW. --Ef80 (talk) 10:32, 17 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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M996 revision by JakkoWesterbeke

Hello JakkoWesterbeke; I reverted your M996 edit as the information provided in the section you deleted this from was all taken from the latest edition of Jane's Logistics, Support & Unmanned (2015-2016). I did not cite every line of this section, just the introductory text as I thought this would suffice, but it's entire contents save a couple of points are from this source, an internationally recognized source. If you cite from another source that the M996 was in fact produced, I see no reason why we could not add this conflicting information. Do you have a citable source? I used to have some contacts at AM General when I had a 'real job' so for completeness will see if I can get something more from the horses mouth on the subject...

I am quite new to Wiki but have learned quickly that a myriad of Talk options exist, and to me (at least...) it can be easy to get lost in them... I will paste these words into your talk page as well.--Wolpat (talk) 16:03, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I should add, I'll also Google a bit later and see what my own search turns up.Wolpat (talk) 16:08, 3 November 2015 (UTC) Update... Found limited images on www. but no contractual confirmation, but AM Gen are on the case; they are going through the full list for me and will correct as required. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolpat (talk • contribs) 19:51, 3 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I replied to this on my own talk page, as I didn’t notice it was posted here too. Jakko Westerbeke (talk) 11:19, 4 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Operators > Confiscated - include ISIS and Syria?

I'm thinking ISIS and Syria's usage of Humvees should be listed under the "Confiscated" section along with the 8 captured by Russia. They weren't supplied the Humvees, they stole them in combat, so that should count as "confiscated", right? Or are we using "confiscated" in a different way here? Jade Phoenix Pence (talk) 15:24, 15 February 2017 (UTC)Jade Phoenix Pence[reply]

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Gas mileage

I'm surprised that this article does not mention Gas mileage. I understood it to be a major flaw of this vehicle in both civilian and military use:

military planners had assumed that fuel would be plentiful and easily available. A Humvee with added armour does just four miles per gallon
— The Economist^[1]

Without armor it gets 10 to 14 miles per gallon.^[2]

the military buys gas for just over $1 a gallon, getting that gallon to some forward operating bases costs $400
— The New York Times^[3]

In Iraq and Afghanistan, one Army study found, for every 24 fuel convoys that set out, one soldier or civilian engaged in fuel transport was killed.
— AEPI - Army Environmental Policy Institute (and The New York Times) ^[3]^[4]

I think this needs to be addressed in this article. I also briefly checked the articles for Humvee replacement process and Joint Light Tactical Vehicle and none of these article seem to address the problem of bad fuel economy, or mention it as a factor in the need to replace the Humvee. -- 109.77.225.189 (talk) 16:48, 25 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

Civilian Sales

The article says "this is the first time the military vehicles have been made available for civilian ownership." with no citation because this claim is wrong. Thousands of US military vehicles of many types have been sold on the civilian market over many years. Perhaps the writer meant that it was the first time military HMMWV's were sold on the civilian market which is probably true for complete, serviceable vehicles from the military (although not true for wrecked vehicles sold as scrap) but should still require a citation to support the statement especially since it would be drawing a distinction between HMMWV's that were delivered to the military then sold to civilians vs identical HMMWV's that were originally delivered to government agencies other than the military. --N4aof (talk) 02:59, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

ETL - ETM - ETT

Any point in mentioning the new mod kits available from AMG?

Expanded Tactical Lethality [[1]] — Expanded Tactical Mobility [[2]] — Enhanced Tactical Transportability [[3]]

71.235.184.247 (talk) 01:19, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Short descriptions could be added in the appropriate section with similar content. -Fnlayson (talk) 13:42, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttps://www.economist.com/technology-quarterly/2009/12/10/greenery-on-the-march?story_id=15048783

[2] ttps://www.forbes.com/2008/06/05/mileage-military-vehicles-tech-logistics08-cz_ph_0605fuel.html

[nytfossil-3] ttps://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/05/science/earth/05fossil.html

[4] ttp://www.aepi.army.mil/docs/whatsnew/SMP_Casualty_Cost_Factors_Final1-09.pdf

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]