Talk:Huilliche language

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Spelling and facts

Hi. The forms "Huillice" and "Tsesungun" may be a mix of spanish spelling "huilliche" and "chesungun" with AFI's "wiʎiče" and "tšesuŋun" or they may be any kind of experimental spelling for Mapudungun.

Moreover, Huilliche people doesn't inhabit mountain valleys: most lives in coastal lands such as San Juan de la Costa or in lake shores. --Lin linao 07:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Huilliche is a dialect of Mapudungun

Huilliche are the Mapudungun dialects speaked by Huilliche people. They had two dialects: Veliche in Chiloe (dead) and Chesungun in coast of Osorno Province (dying). It is no a clear linguistic barrier among southern and northern groups. Authors discuss about their status. Please, see this abstract and this interwiew (in Spanish) to the author of Mapudungun: el habla mapuche, a very interesting book on mapudungun topics. He says "...no deja de llamar la atención lo similares que son los diferentes dialectos: el pehuenche, el huilliche, el mapudungun central, etc." ([bad] translation: "It must be payed attention to similarity between dialects: pehuenche, huilliche, central mapudungun, etc."). Bye. --Lin linao 06:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You know, Ethnologue is pretty much the gold standard and the authority on the subject.Qrc2006 06:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnologue is a good thing, but it is plenty of little mistakes (1). Why Huilliche? Why not Pehuenche? I propose write "Accords to Ethnologue is an Araucanian language...". Bye. --Lin linao 15:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC) PS: Huillice? In chesungun dialect Huilliche sounds [wi'ʎi.tʃe], [wi'ʝi.tʃe] or [wi'dʒi.tʃe] (identical to central Mapudungun).[reply]

Why Hulliche? Whay what about it? The reason there is an article on Huilliche because a trusted source, Ethnologue says it is a language, even if it were a dialect it would have an article that's why. Why not Pehuenche? Because this article is about Huilliche. Perhaps i shall make a Pehuenche article. You have not provided any serious sources that contradict ethnologue which states "Related to Mapudungun, but barely intelligible with it." Spanish and Portuguse are somewhat intelligable, and just because they have some identical or similar words does not make them a langauges Tsunami is the same in English and Japanese, Naive is the same in English and French, Tortilla is the same for Spanish and English this does not make them the same it makes them related.Qrc2006 22:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

[SIL International] also recognizes it as a distinct languageQrc2006 00:58, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sources and facts

1: I wrote and huge explanation and my browser betrayed me. Here I go with a shorter text :(.

2: If you consider "or, accords another sources, a southern dialect of Mapudungun " a poor English statement, you should enhance it, isn't you?

3: This book explains that Croese considers (?) to Huilliche barely intelligle with Mapudungun, however, Álvarez-Santullano, a reputed authority on this dialect, says last speakers can understand another varities indeed, but the main intelligibility problem is their escarce linguistic competence.

4: In the same book there is a list of places where remain speakers. San Juan de la Costa (40º30'40"S, 73º23'37") is in a western part of Intermediate Depression and Huapi Island (40º13'24"S, 72º12'26"W) is in an eastern zone, but of course no in a mountain valley.

5: Veliche dialect/language from Chiloe died in 19th Century. Maybe it could was a separate language, but records are only a few poems and writing system is obscure (a text). Now in Chiloé is spoken Chesungun from San Juan de la Costa [1] by a dozen people (Fabre, 2005).

7: In an official website of huilliche people of Chiloe you can see a greeting (?). Using the more common writing system:

May may pu lamien, pu peñi

Pu peñi pu lamngen, invitawaiñ, itrofill mapu chew ta ñi mongelen kom taiñ willichengen Chilwe mapu mew.

In central Mapudungun, that is:

Mari mari pu lamngen, pu peñi

Pu peñi (ka) pu lamngen, mangelaiñ itrofill mapu ta ñi mongelen kom taiñ willichengen Chillwe mapu mew.

8: What are the sources for Ethnologue?

9: "Disputed" label is necessary, because there are 2 points of view and actually only one of them is shown. I will ask to another user about this concern. Bye. --Lin linao 08:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Third opinion

A request for a third opinion was filed on WP:3O. Huilliche, according to Ethnologue (an authoritative source on languages), is a language, so the title of this article should stay the same. However, the source that calls Huilliche a dialect should be mentioned while treated as a minority view. KazakhPol 00:33, 3 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot. Minority view is not a good description for the main expert (Álvarez-Santalluno) and many other authorities, but this is a step forward. What kind of sources uses Ethnologue?. Bye. --Lin linao 01:39, 3 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnologue is famous for being "splitters" when it comes to language clasification: that is they count many more languages than other sources, because thy base their classification on intelligibillity tests and sometimes they call language varieties dictinct languages even theugh they have more than 85% mutualk intelligibility. Even a language as homogeneous as Danish they count as 5 different languages. This is going to be recurrent problem in describing minority languages - there is no easy way of distinguishing a language from a dialect. We have to find a way to go around this problem or we will hit a wall when we try to make articles on indigenous languages. In my opinion it is clear that Huilliche is a dialect of Mapudungun but that it has diverged enough to become partly unintelligible with its parent language - if Huilliche speakers also consider their language and ethnicity to be separate from Mapudungun, if the chilean government considers it as a separate language etc. then it should be listd as a language closely retaled to mapudungun otherwise it should be liste as a divergent dialect. Anyway it is clearly and Araucanian language so that should go in the infobox.Maunus 13:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, (=Now I see it?). Huilliche speakers refer to themselves as "williche", "mapuche-williche", "mapuche" or "veliche" and always say that at the end (?) they belong to Mapuches. Some consider (?) chesungun a separate language. Mapuche people just north of their territory calls them "williche" or "mapuche-williche". Chilean government uses "huilliche", "mapuche-huilliche" or "huilliche" (in census, only "mapuche") for people, and for chesungun uses "(dialecto) huilliche", "mapudungun" o "veliche". Bye. --Lin linao 18:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is Huilliche an official language?

If it is it should figure on the template if it isn't the template shouldn't be included here.Maunus 13:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is not official (and is not recognized as a language, except by Ethnologue and some huilliche leaders). Lin linao 07:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Copyediting

Please note, I cannot ascertain the veracity of this sentence as modified here:

It is spoken in an area south of the area inhabited by the Mapuche, in the nation's Los Lagos Region and mountain valleys, between the city of Valdivia and south toward Chiloé Island.

The Mapuche are a people, not a region as specified in the link. This is confirmed by sources independent to Wikipedia. This people inhabit an area now governed by Chile and Argentina. So as this sentence now reads, the Huilliche language is spoken in one area, which is described in three ways:

south of the Mapuche people
in the Los Lagos Region
between Valdivia and Chiloe island

Please note here if this is incorrect.--Otheus 13:42, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Huilliche people is the part of Mapuche people who traditionally has inhabited southern Chile between Valdivia and Chiloe, but only a few of them can speak a form of Mapudungun very affected by Spanish, and mainly for ceremonial purposes. Therefore, the third statement needs an explanation. Bye. Lin linao 03:59, 18 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fake

Hello. There are not native speakers of a local variety of Mapudungun or the so called "Huilliche" in Chiloe Archipelago. Enduring Voices don't provide examples of this alleged language or dialect. In Youtube are videos in Spanish only. Another sources say the local variety of Mapudungun died around early 1900's (Cañas, 1911) and Tsesungun was reintroduced in late 1930's and its known at some point by elder people (Trivero, 1999). There are people who say words or short sentences in Tsesungun or Central Mapudungun, learned at school or books, as anyone could repeat words in a foreign language, but no native speakers or semi speakers. This Huillichesungun is a fake. Regards. Lin linao (talk) 23:35, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is more complex, because there actually is a different development of the Mapudungun language that's specific to Chiloé; to me this would mean that the starting statement in this article which is indetifying Huilliche language as a "branch of Arauncanian". --Lluvia Roja (talk) 21:43, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]