Talk:How Many More Times

Yardbirds

This song has the same bassline as "Smokestack Lightning" by the Yardbirds. I'm fairly sure the two aren't exact, but most bass lines from Smokestack Lightning are the same as the one in How Many More Times.

• Yes, the song evolved out of The Yardbirds' live versions of "Smokestack Lightning," especially the extended versions from the band's final tour in spring 1968.ScottSwan 04:38, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Albert King

Mention of Albert King has been reintroduced. The lyrical phrase is both pertinent and encyclopedic. It is the lyrical climax of the song and it has a notable source (King). Additionally this reference is reliable. The last removal of this material June 2008 was not explained. Albert King is far more pertinent in this article than mention of Neil Young. Not to diss the Neil Young part of the article; but lets get the priorities straight in what has been included. - Steve3849 ^talk 08:08, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

• It was removed because it was factually incorrect. King never wrote "The Hunter". HelenWatt (talk) 06:03, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

It was sung by Albert King and first released under his name (atleast I've found no other prior version). Credited to Booker T. Jones, Al Jr. Jackson, Carl Wells, Donald V Dunn, Steve Cropper: these guys are Booker T and the MGs. It appears they recorded the famous Albert King version as the Stax house band with Albert King singing. Isn't to flat out disassociate this song with King because he did not write it similiar to arguing that "Jailhouse Rock" is not an Elvis song? I've made a correction in the sentence. - Steve3849 ^talk 15:47, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

The reference is still incorrect because what Mendelsohn said was wrong. A better comparison would be claiming that "Hound Dog" is an Elvis song when in fact it wasn't. If this continues I'm going to propose this be settled by consensus and open up a vote on this talk page. HelenWatt (talk) 00:19, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

"The Hunter" is credited to the band provided to King by the studio for his recording. "Hound Dog" however is different because it was recorded prior to Elvis by someone else. Show me where "The Hunter" was recorded by someone prior to King's studio band for the song (Booker T and the MGs) and I will drop this immediately. It is King's song similar to my example that "Jailhouse Rock" is Elvis' song (Elvis did not write "Jailhouse Rock" and atleast one of the writers is in the recording, yet if in a wiki article one were to reference use of the song as a component of another it is pretty obvious that a mention of Elvis would not be inappropriate, nor cause harm). "The Hunter" was released to King's name. King's version most likely has every one of the credited writers playing on it. Crediting King's recording credits the band on the recording who are the actual writers. Mendelsohn is not wrong. - Steve3849 ^talk 15:56, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

It's incidental but interesting. The band, Free, also covered The Hunter. Of course Paul Rodgers and Simon Kirke from Free go on to form Bad Company - which is on Zeppelin's label, Swan Song. Later, Rodgers' joins Jimmy Page to form The Firm. 24.252.15.40 (talk) 16:31, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure why there has been so much resistance on this article to what seems to me to be pertinent, useful information that is not as factually incorrect as is consistently protested. The primary complaint has been that Albert King did not write it. I argue that idea's relevance above, but regardless of that argument the following proposal fulfills your request for proper credit succinctly. Here is my new proposal. Tell me what you think:

The "hunter" component is reworked from "The Hunter" recorded by bluesmen Booker T& the MGs with Albert King.

Will this work? - Steve3849 ^talk 16:20, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, the article is wrong, according to the royalty collection agency for the song, Robert Plant did co-write the song, see Ascap, How Many More Times, I think the info box needs changing accordingly. Using Ascap as the primary source, neither Albert King, nor Steve Cropper et al or anybody else get any songwriter royalties for their contribution. The easy solution to the argument is to list writers and performer, if only because I think it is acceptable that Led Zep did know the Albert King version (assuming there are other versions of the song). However, it should be noted that the concept of "copyright ownership" came late to blues music and I daresay neither the Howlin Wolf nor the Albert king songs are as original as being suggested. For a pertinent example think of Sonny Boy Williamson's "Help Me" and Booker T's "Green Onions." It was, and probably still is, fairly commonplace for blues musicians to deliberately "borrow" lyrics and musical motifs for their own songs, nor is it unknown for blues musicians in the earlier part of the last century to be paid a flat fee for a recording and the record label boss grab the copyright on the song. For what it's worth, I think the songwriters should always be listed, when known. --Richhoncho (talk) 08:45, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Consensus vote

I'm putting this to a vote of consensus. Should Albert King be listed in the article even though he didn't write the song. Vote support or oppose, followed by your user id and date:

• Oppose. HelenWatt (talk) 06:58, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Some additional discussion would be appreciated. - Steve3849 ^talk 07:49, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

• Compromise. - List both writers and performer in this instance. See longer comment above. --Richhoncho (talk) 08:46, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose: this has been a mountain out of a molehill. Do you realise we're talking here three lines in the entire song that was allegedly reworked? Since similarities and reuse between blues lyrics has always been commonplace within the blues genre, this has been nothing but an over-reactive exercise in WP:POINT. ZhaoHong (talk) 10:06, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Reply. The "mountain" seemed necessary regarding the several prior deletes and undoes of this material without an understanding of whether such material is genuinely inappropriate. This is only the first time someone has bothered to voice an opinion in favor of adding the material. If the material stays off the page (which the editors with an investment in the article seem to concur) its an easy bet that more people in the future will be innocently re-adding it again ...to be simply undone again (probably without discussion). At least there has been an attempt to discuss the matter this time with an attempt to use correct phrasing and references. - Steve3849 ^talk 10:43, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

• Support - Steve3849 ^talk 10:43, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
• Note – User:HelenWatt and User:ZhaoHong are sockpuppets of one another, and both are now indef-blocked. Paul Erik ^{(talk)(contribs)} 03:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

psychedelic rock?

how is this not listed as psychedelic rock? have you people listened to this song? its just as druggy as dazed and confused, if not more. just listen to it —Preceding unsigned comment added by PeanutButterBlues (talk • contribs) 04:48, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Doubtful claim

"all new Led Zeppelin releases since 1993 have co-credited the song to Burnett via an arrangement with his publishing company, ARC Music"

Neither the Led Zeppelin DVD (2003) nor the 2014 reissue of Led Zeppelin lists Burnett on the credits. Geoff Mason (talk) 17:14, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Appears someone confused this with "The Lemon Song" probably based on the credits on BBC Sessions. Piriczki (talk) 17:49, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

How Many More Times riff

(copied from Talk:List of Led Zeppelin songs written or inspired by others#How Many More Times riff):

The lyrics are clearly based on Howlin' Wolf's "How Many More Years" while the riff is based on another tune by Wolf called "No Place to Go" which had been covered by Fleetwood Mac already on their 1968 debut album. It would be nice to add this info but I'm not sure if there's a reliable source about it. Chapa1985 (talk) 15:31, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

There is a brief mention in Cross the Water Blues: African American Music in Europe:[1]

Howlin' Wolf recorded a very similar song, "How Many More Years" (HMMY), and another called "No PLace to Go" (NPTG). HMMT [LZ song] begins, "How many more times, treat me the way you wanna do," NPTG includes the lyrics, "How many more times you gonna treat me like you do" with a similar melody line and a harmonica part which is also featured in the Zeppelin tune. HMMY begins, "How many more years, have I got to let you dog me around, " lyrics that are similar if not identical to NPTG, but this song has clearly the same tune, and is the source of the Zeppelin melody."

For some reason, LZ biographers haven't made the connection, but often mention Gary Farr and the T-Bones' 1964 "How Many More Times", which is clearly Wolf's "No Place to Go".[2] They also note that LZ's version evolved from live performances of "Smokestack Lightning" when Page was with the Yardbirds.[3][4][5][6] There is a live Yardbirds' recording of "Smokestack Lightning" (with different lyrics) from 1968 in which Page plays some of the same exact riff and other portions that show up in HMMT (Last Rave Up in L.A.[7]).
—Ojorojo (talk) 18:08, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

So the info is not original research and can be added then? Chapa1985 (talk) 18:31, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

Rupert Till (Cross the Water) is the only one to make the connection between Wolf's "No Place to Go" and LZ's "How Many More Times" and only mentions the lyrics and melody. The rest talk about Wolf's "How Many More Years", the Yardbirds' "Smokestack Lightning", and Farr's "How Many More Times", but don't link those songs to NPTG. Lewis calls the LZ song "a marriage of Howlin' Wolf's How Many More Years and the Yardbirds arrangement of Smokestack Lightning." Priddey notes that the LZ song has "an opening bass line that was similar to a former Yardbirds reworking of 'Smokestack Lightning'", which is the only mention of the riff. Case notes that Plant's and Bonham's Band of Joy performed Wolf's HMMY. My feeling is that Band of Joy probably were playing Farr's "How Many More Times" (actually "No Place to Go") and Plant used similar lyrics and melody for Page's Yardbirds "Smokestack Lightning" spin-off (but of course, it's OR). See Talk:The Rain Song#Edit war over cited content for ideas on how to handle this. —Ojorojo (talk) 19:37, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

Looks like things are far more complicated than I imagined when there's not enough sources. Chapa1985 (talk) 20:13, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

I agree that this tune seems like a distant-derivation of the "No Place to Go" song by Howlin' Wolf, but there is no way I agree with the writer's idea that "this song has clearly the same tune", when to me, it clearly doesn't. The LZ melody is not much like the NPtG melody, which is likely why not many other writers (if any) made the connection.

The Bass line also differs, as does the accompaniment, obviously. So I wouldn't say that it's really the same riff; though it is similar; and I wouldn't be surprised if someone from one of the other bands borrowed it or modified it, and then Jimmy Page picked that modification up and modified that.

Some of the Blues songs are so similar that one might argue that many borrowed or "stole" from one another; and so maybe half the songs released on Blues albums would come under lawsuits. But I don't hear that here at all in HMMT. Also, many, many Blues songs had similar structures to one another, and somewhat-monotone melodies, almost more like they are talking than singing.

It's sad that there are so many lawsuits these days over things that sound similar; if it's not clear stealing, and pretty-much identical, maybe they should just stop. It's almost like we need a separate court system that understands music in this way to deal with it. Trial by a jury that aren't all or mostly composers seems just wrong.

This is the Howlin' Wolf version of "No Place to Go" I listened to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60gOGXzwnz0

And this is the Fleetwood Mac version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GROdGx1-j2g

Misty MH (talk) 21:40, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Love this article. Seems like it needs more information.

I can't place my finger on it, but it almost seems as if the article is about halfway there. LZ didn't release many singles, so this might be hard to track; but I wish there were a way. It may be one of their bests songs. Charts, more reviews, more insight into the creation of the song. Lots more could be added, including more citations. The reviewer comment on strained vocals might be one view; but I hear humor in his voice, almost like he's smiling and almost laughing during performance; and then he focuses again on the person he's singing about. Misty MH (talk) 21:20, 23 June 2021 (UTC)