Talk:Ivan Bagramyan

Vandalism

This page appears vandalized everytime I check it.

129.174.194.149

?

Marshall, are you going to add the name of Ivan Bagramian in Armenian font?--Moosh88 01:22, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

The picture seems a little bit not like mr. bagramyan...i believe it was vandalized by another user...please check. Ivdla 13:23, 9 May 2007 (UTC)ivdla

``Atypically for a military officer in the Soviet Union, he only joined the gay league of the Communist Party in 1941.`` -Is this statement correct?

Birthplace

About birthplace. Sources give different information. After some of them Bagramian was born in Elizavetpol, and after others he was born in Chardakhlu. How can you exploin it? May be some of them takes the birthplace for the workplace of his father? --FHen^(ru) 20:49, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations

Another great job by MarshallBagramyan. Vartanm 22:44, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Counter offensives in 1941

"Bagramyan was instrumental in the planning of two Soviet counter-offensives against German forces in the final months of 1941".

I'll remove the trivial link to counter-offensives (it's also a non-existant article), but I'm wondering which counter offensives those were? The article doesn't say anything about which, where and what the outcome of those offensives were. Were they during the Battle of Moscow, or somewhere else on the eastern front? I think at least where this was, should be added. Shanes 14:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I checked the source, it was indeed the battle of Moscow.

On a second reading, that line is drawn from two sources: one being Jukes' and the other from the SAE. Jukes makes mention of his help in organizing two counteroffensives without specifying which ones, while the SAE specifically mentions that he took part in organizing the December Moscow counter-offensive.--MarshallBagramyan 17:37, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Some Stupid Troll had put the wrong picture in the caption box

The original picture of Bagramian had been replaced by one of Weird Al Yankovic. Stupid trolls. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.75.116.70 (talk) 17:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

Which May 10?

In the WWII: Ukraine section we read, "Since the winter of 1940, Bagramyan had been busy devising a battle plan that would counter threats from the western Ukraine that was approved after numerous revisions on May 10.[13]" May 10 of what year? Preston McConkie 17:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Unanswered questions

What did Bagramyan do from 1945-1982? Did he ever marry or have children? --Fang Aili ^talk 18:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that section was removed by a vandal and was just recently restored. I'm unsure of his personal life but I have seen some pictures of him with what I believe was his wife and daughter from the 1930s.--MarshallBagramyan 18:56, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Very nice section, thank you. --Fang Aili ^talk 19:22, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

FA picture

First off, congratulations everyone for the FA status. Second, did you really have to use that picture for the FA thumbnail? I checked to make sure it was the right one as soon as I saw it. I thought it was a young Hitler from what I could see of the uniform and the little mustache. Slavlin 18:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

My great-grandfather had that kind of mustache and they'd always raise that point, tongue in cheek, that he resembled Hitler. Must have been in style back then.--MarshallBagramyan 18:56, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Molotov-Ribbentrop pact

I have attempted to change the awkward reference, "non-aggression Molotov-Ribbentrop pact" to "Molotov-Ribbentrop non-aggression pact." I've kept the link intact, and the changed usage is standard and acceptable. But Wafulz keeps changing it back with no explanation. To avoid an editing war, I want to hear what others think of why it should stay with the original, and I believe awkward, wording--or of folks agree with my proposed change. Preston McConkie 18:36, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The latter one you proposed sounds right. Besides, whoever might be doing is probably just doing it for the sake of playing around with the article so it doesn't appear too constitute any real violation of edit warring.--MarshallBagramyan 18:56, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

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This entry has been vandalized several times; it should be locked.

The TFA is vandalized everyday and is not protected or semi-protected. See Wikipedia:Protection policy. ShadowHalo 20:51, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you think that Wikipedia:Main Page featured article protection should be redrafted or not? Please help form consensus at Wikipedia talk:Main Page featured article protection#Consensus. DrKiernan 09:52, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Allegiance

Bagramyan never had an 'allegiance' to Armenia. He was an ethnic Armenian, and he obviously was a leading personality in Armenia, but his allegiances were with the Soviet Union. If he had been anything else, ne would have been branded 'nazionalist' and dismissed from the Army at the very least. He never to may knowledge advocated Armenian independence during his lifetime, and using the post-Soviet Union Armenian flag is of course misinforming the reader. If anything, the Soviet era Armenian republic flag should be used since I believe he was at one time a deputy representing Armenia in the Communist Party. It seems to me that the symbol of the Marshal, the shoulder-board needs to be more prominent since this is a major defining symbol of Bagramyan.-- mrg3105mrg3105 21:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi Mrg, you are confusing the Democratic Republic of Armenia (1918-1920, Bagramyan served in its army) with the modern-day Republic of Armenia and Soviet Armenia. - Fedayee (talk) 22:06, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not confusing anything. Bagramyan may have served in the Armenian Army before its incorporation into the Soviet Union, but not in the rank of a Marshal of Soviet Union, which is what this articles is about :o)-- mrg3105mrg3105 22:43, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

But he didn't become a Marshal until 1955. From 1917, he had been a junior officer and worked his way up until finally reaching the highest rank of Marshal. We shouldn't discard his service in any of the armies he served, whether they being the Imperial Russian Army, DROA Army or the Red Army.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 00:08, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Bagramyan, AS IT SAYS IN THE ARTICLE, was a praporshik in the Imperial Russian Army, and then joined the Red Cavalry. He never held a noteworthy commission in the Armenian forces that I know of, and achieved all his officer ranks in the Soviet Army. In what way does his living in Armenia during its brief experience of independence suggest his ALLEGIANCES were with Armenia? In fact he left Armenia and didn't live there for most of his life due to Army service!So what is the point of adding the Armenian falg? I suggest it is simply your attempt to nationalise the article to reflect some sense of patriotic pride in his achievement, but this is not the place to show it. Bagramyan was for all records of history a Soviet officer and a Soviet Marshal. There were other Marshals of non-Russian extraction. You can't rewrite history based on your patriotic feelings.-- mrg3105mrg3105 00:39, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Baghramyan was a praporshik in the Imperial Russian Army until his unit was withdrawn from Turkey following Brest-Litovsk. But Baghramyan didn't join the Red Army until May 1920. So I believe there is a two year gap between that time where he was in the armed services of something along the lines called the Democratic Republic of Armenia. As it's clearly stated in the article, Baghramyan served in Armenian units fighting for the Armenian army for two years and this coming not from some nationalistic source but Soviet ones which clearly warrants mention that his allegiance at one point of his life were to the DROA.

We therefore can mention his allegiance of all three factions: the Imperial Russian Army, the DROA and finally the USSR. Aleksandr Vasilevsky is remembered as a brilliant Soviet officer yet his article makes mention of his allegiance to the Imperial Russian army. You can file an RfC to resolve this issue if you wish, if you still feel the compromise version is inadequate but you are engaged in nothing but distortion of sources. Regards, --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 21:08, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I think you are just misinterpreting history. Vasilevsky HAD TO swear allegiance to the Tsar on his commission as an officer. Bagramyan was drafted, and as an NCO swore his allegiance to the Tsar as part of the unit ceremony. Unless you can provide factual information that he was a commissioned officer in the DROA, I would have to assume that he supported Communism, or at least Socialism in his early life, which is why he joined the Red Army. That he had to be a member of the Communist Party after reaching the rank of a Captain goes without saying. How can you suggest compromises in interpreting history? This is the same argument some Turkish historians use when they claim that the deaths of Armenians during the 20s were a part of the general 'unrest' of the times and that Turks died also. Something either is, or is not, and the job of a historian is to show otherwise. I'll be happy to see any evidence, because I have read only one book on Bagramyan written in USSR, so I'm not suggesting that I'm an authority, but you have not offered any such evidence.-- mrg3105mrg3105 22:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

PS. If anything, Bagramyan's actions suggest he did not swear allegiance to DROA. If he had, he would have remained there, but he left and joined the Red Army, and on joining the Red Army, he did have to swear allegiance to the Revolution and the Party of Workers, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrg3105 (talk • contribs) 22:38, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Mrg, please avoid such sentences as "I suggest it is simply your attempt to nationalise the article to reflect some sense of patriotic pride in his achievement, but this is not the place to show it." They go against WP:AGF. I can start simply assuming as well about your intentions but such things are not helpful at all to discussion.

This is a very simple non-issue. Bagramyan enlisted into the DRA army and fought within its ranks in very crucial (and famous to Armenians) battles against the invading Turks. When you join an army, you are going to fight by its side which Bagramyan did, especially during that time when the Turks were a few km away from Yerevan. The battles (especially Sardarabad) were battles that would determine life or death of the newly established republic. What he joined, became or did after or during the fall of the DRA has nothing to do with what he did prior to it. The DRA's "brief experience of independence" does not disqualify Bagramyan's service to the country and to its survival.

Also, "Unless you can provide factual information that he was a commissioned officer in the DROA, I would have to assume that he supported Communism, or at least Socialism". Don't forget that the DRA was ruled by socialists who were majority in government by far and also held all important posts. - Fedayee (talk) 00:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Allegiance to...

User Mrg3105 has been reverting the notion of Baghramyan's allegiance to the Democratic Republic of Armenia in the infobox of the article, claiming that this stems from my attempt to "nationalize" Baghramyan, who was a Soviet officer for most of his career. I beg to differ and proposed that we can list his service to each faction with dates including the Russian Empire, but attempts to engage him with dialogue have been fruitless and frustrating, himself evidently referring to me as a nationalistic sod —Preceding unsigned comment added by MarshallBagramyan (talk • contribs) 22:00, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

• Scrap that section of the box. Boxes are only good for black and white issues. The article itself can deal perfectly well with grey/gray issues - summary boxes cannot. Aatomic1 (talk) 22:11, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Service during GPW

I'm coming back to fix this up because the current content is very confused--Shattered Wikiglass (talk) 12:48, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

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Transliteration

Folks, this is an excellent article, so maybe transliteration has already been discussed in detail, but just in case, I'd like to bring it up. What is it spelled Bagramyan in English, rather than Baghramyan, which is how the ղ is normally written in English. I know Russian doesn't have the "gh" sound, so in Russian they'd use the plain g, but this is English. Shouldn't it be gh? --RaffiKojian (talk) 04:05, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Normally the Armenian ղ is transliterated in English as gh. However, in this case his allegiance matters, which is Soviet Union, with Russian as its state language. Generally, in the Soviet era, the Russian spelling served as the basis of spelling the names of Armenians and all other Soviet peoples representing the Soviet Union. Nowadays, it wouldn't be a good idea to alter the Russified English spelling since it would alter tons of references to his name spelled the old way for decades. The same refers to composer Khatchaturian's name, the Armenian-based transliteration of which would be Khatchatrian (without the 'u'). --Karakar (talk) 11:46, 09 October 2009 (UTC)

Ivan or Hovhannes

• "Ivan Bagramyan" -Llc - 146 results
• "Hovhannes Bagramyan" -Llc - 2 results

Takabeg (talk) 17:25, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I've been contemplating moving this to Ivan Bagramyan for some time now as well. I would support a move.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 20:32, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. Valid rationale and noting this previous support vote strong consensus to move. Andrewa (talk) 06:40, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

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Hovhannes Bagramyan → Ivan Bagramyan – per WP:COMMONNAME: GoogleBooks Ngram Viewer comparison.

It's similar to the case of Azi Aslanov. Takabeg (talk) 07:53, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

File:Bagramyan1938.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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More citations needed

More citations and information needed for the 1918-1920 period, precisely about his alleged involvement in the Battle of Sardapat and the May uprising.--HCPUNXKID 16:09, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

FA sweeps

The article currently does not meet the FA criteria, due to verifiability issues. Much of the content is not supported by inline citations, such as the entire Honours and awards section. It may need featured article review if citations are not added. (t · c) buidhe 11:23, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

buidhe, I'm willing to improve the article if you can guide me a bit. At a first glance, most of the unsourced honours are present in the source in the beginning of the honours section (ref #52 currently). I'll do an in depth reading of that reference tomorrow. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 20:57, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

For the honors section, possibly, but it has to be checked to make sure it supports the content and edited so that there is a citation for each bullet per WP:FARC2c. Thanks for working to improve the article. (t · c) buidhe 01:05, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

@Kevo327: when all of the templates are resolved in the article (like the citation needed or dubious tags) please ping buidhe or me and someone will give more comments. Thanks! Z1720 (talk) 19:06, 6 February 2022 (UTC)