Talk:Hostelling Scotland

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I've made a serious attempt to neutralize the entry. I'm sorry more of the original article couldn't be left in, but it really couldn't be called NPOV. Candle-ends 06:29, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

You did a very good job. The paragraph about it leaving its roots behind should probably be removed completely unless we can find that someone other than a Wikipedia editor has made this complaint; otherwise it's original thought and not suitable for an encyclopaedia. For example, the website of a notable pressure group (i.e. with a membership greater than one local loony) or an editorial in a paper would back up this claim. I've stuck a {{fact}} template on the paragraph and we can leave it up for a few days in case someone can find a source. --Sam Blanning (formerly Malthusian) (talk) 18:04, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the encouragement. I'd be delighted to delete that last paragraph, which is why I left it in. I think most of my contributions to the article infringe the 'no original research' law since I can't say I've based them on much except my many hostel stays. I'm looking around for places to cite, or barring that, information I could put in instead. Candle-ends 03:22, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Second it being a good job. Technically your contributions infringe WP:NOR, but like many other articles they make descriptive claims the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable adult without specialist knowledge, and should do fine until suitable reference sources are found. An obvious starting point is about ourselves, but hang it all I've added some bits from that and googled some sites as supporting evidence. Carry on chaps (and chapesses). .. dave souza, talk 12:10, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I really don't think the Tiso, Rambler's assoc, and Youngscot links should be here: they're about hostelling in general, not about the SYHA. If we had a Hostelling in Scotland article (or somesuch) that would be a more appropriate place for them. In addition to their debatable relevance, their presence also encourages spammers to add hostel-booking sites (and weakens our case for removing such spamlinks on the grounds that they're not specifically about the SYHA). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 12:14, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree, so I removed those external links for the moment. I also used the Angry Corrie article and the MSP's speech to reference the 'roots' paragraph. --Sam Blanning (formerly Malthusian) (talk) 12:25, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Hostels: past and present

The embedded list at #Hostels: past and present provides a useful and accessible way of looking at the history of Scottish hostelling, neatly presented as a collapsed header so it doesn't clutter the article: pressing [show] reveals the info for an interested reader, and the list is easily re-ordered according to heading. Meets Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Embedded lists and Wikipedia:Lists within articles, the notability and info is covered by the reference to Martin, John (2012). An Illustrated Survey of SYHA's Youth Hostels 1931-2011. Stirling: SYHA. Clearly encyclopaedic and useful information. Suggest the hostel names / locations should be wikilinked wherever possible; e.g. Kirk Yetholm. . . dave souza, talk 08:54, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

There are two issues here:

1. Firstly, the list of hostels. It tells us absolutely nothing about the history of Scottish hostelling; it is merely an indiscriminate collection of information. It is certainly not accessible. Its provenance is not clear so it fails WP:V. In any case, that is a necessary but not sufficient condition for inclusion. Information should not be included in this encyclopedia solely because it is true or useful. To provide encyclopedic value, data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources. This list has no context and no explanation, and therefore no encyclopaedic value. Furthermore it is badly formatted. All caps should never be used.
2. Secondly, the misuse of text from a source, which you did not even attempt to justify. In almost all cases, you may not copy text from other sources into Wikipedia. Doing so is a copyright violation and may constitute plagiarism. Always write the articles in your own words and cite the sources of the article. Brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea. Use of copyrighted text must be in compliance with Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria policy. This means that the quotation must not be replaceable with free text (including one that the editor writes), must be minimal, must have contextual significance and must have previously been published. The text is not being used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea. It is easily replaceable with free text.

Your edits seem to be motivated not by a desire to improve the article but by a sense of ownership. You did not quote any actual guidelines to support your position, and the intent of your links was not clear. In the absence of any actual arguments which refer to specific text from policies and guidelines, I will remove this content again tomorrow. 217.158.174.226 (talk) 21:45, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Clearly the information in the table about the different hostels can be verified. I have added some referencing to the start of the list. The capitalisation of words is straightforward to fix. I think the information in the table isn't completely useless and may be relevant to other articles. Drchriswilliams (talk) 08:44, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @ 217.158.174.226, taking your points in reverse order, you're not a mind-reader and your assertions about my motivations are false: please desist from personal attacks. Secondly, the quotation of an organisation's stated aims is fully acceptable, 217.158.174.226's edit summary was uninformative and inaccurate. As it happens, the citation was a dead link, and as they no longer provide this statement on the SYHA website, I've removed it. On the first point, lists are part of Wikipedia and fully accepted, including lists about the former use of buildings. Hence the list guidelines. The source material is cited as John Martin (archivist.) (2011). An Illustrated Survey of SYHA's Youth Hostels, 1931-2011. Jeremy Mills Publishing. ISBN 978-1-906600-65-5. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help). In addition, citations for several hostels have now been added, referencing a National Library of Scotland document, thanks to User:Drchriswilliams. There's clearly no consensus to remove this content, which as already stated is informative and fully in accordance with Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Formatting can of course be improved. . . dave souza, talk 08:50, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Drchriswilliams:

1. I tried and was unable to verify the information in the table with the sources given. Please indicate the provenance of all of the data shown.
2. To provide encyclopedic value, data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources. Where is the context and explanation?

Dave Souza:

1. Lifting text from a source and presenting it in the voice of the encyclopaedia is never acceptable. I removed the non-free text with a informative and accurate edit summary and your claim to the contrary was a personal attack. Are you familiar with the core policy that Wikipedia is free?
2. Lists are accepted, like all content, subject to certain conditions. One of those conditions is that encyclopaedic value is provided by context and explanations. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. This table is an indiscriminate collection of information.
3. You think this table is informative. Tell me what you think I'm supposed to learn about the Scottish Youth Hostels Association from it. 217.158.174.226 (talk) 21:04, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

@ 217.158.174.226, you do not indicate whether your have actually read any of the various references added since your attempt to delete material. If you click on the links that are added you will find that they include coverage in a national newspaper and the index for the archive of record deposited in the National Library of Scotland. This is not an indiscriminate collection of information. It is a way of verifying information within the table. There are other sources that could be used too, for example further mentions of individual hostels in other newspaper articles. Drchriswilliams (talk) 21:56, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

"I tried and was unable to verify the information in the table with the sources given" indicates that I read the available references. As you did not respond to any of the questions I asked you, and showed that you had not read what I wrote, I wonder why you even bothered to reply. 217.158.174.226 (talk) 22:35, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

@ 217.158.174.226: Since you claim to have read An Illustrated Survey of SYHA's Youth Hostels 1931-2011 you should realise that this is published information of interest to anyone looking into the development and changes in Scottish hostelling. You ask that "data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources", that was already the case in that the overview gave context; further historical context has since been added. The table formatting makes it easy to find which were the earliest hostels, when hostels opened and closed, and which are still open. Very basic and useful information on the history, presented in a collapsed format so until an interested reader clicks [show] it does not impinge unduly on the article. One point is valid: the caps formatting is being resolved as other improvements are made: you are of course welcome to fixit by improving the formatting. . . dave souza, talk 06:15, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

This article is about the Scottish Youth Hostels Association. It is not about the development and changes in Scottish Hosteling. It is not about when hostels opened and closed. How many SYHA hostels there have been and how many there are currently is of some relevance to the subject of the article, and this information is there in the text. The table adds nothing of encyclopaedic value. That you think it should be hidden tells us that you agree. Go create an article called List of youth hostels in Scotland and you might find a valid place for it; this article is not it. 217.158.174.226 (talk) 08:17, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

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