Talk:Hopi/Archive 1

Archive 1

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Someone who knows what he's doing please fix the following problem: I read this article and found a double word (calendar calendar) on the Wiki page. I THINK this is an obvious typo. However, no matter how I tried to edit the page the double word would not appear. Protected? Something else? 67.161.177.2 21:28, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

What the??? I just checked after making the above post and now the double word (which appeared w several exit/enters on my part) no longer appears. Someon who knows what he's doing . . . . . .67.161.177.2 21:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I understand it, the Hopi do not consider themselves "a tribe", but a series of independant towns that share a language and culture. These towns, together with the clans, provide the basic social structures. Within those towns there are difference ceremonies, customs, and political organizations. The US government has required the Hopi to create a "tribal council" which many Hopi consider to be an inappropriate and artificial contstruct.

Aarionrhodaarionrhod~Yes, independent and moreover, sovereign villages, and recognized as such by the US Government

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The mythical traditions of the Ancient Sumerians eerily resonate with those of the Hopi tribe of North America. Both have a central flood mythology, and both claim descendance from entities who survived a Great Flood. Here is a list of Hopi/Sumeria synchronicities:

The Hopi believe the Creator of Man is a woman. The Sumerians believed the Creator of Man was a woman.

The Hopi believe the Father Creator is KA. The Sumerians believed the Father Essence was KA.

The Hopi believe Taiowa, the Sun God, is the Creator of the Earth. The Sumerians believe TA.EA was the Creator.

The Hopi believe two brothers had guardianship of the Earth. The Sumerians believed two brothers had dominion over the Earth.

The Hopi believe Alo to be spiritual guides. The Sumerians believed AL.U to be beings of Heaven.

The Hopi believe Kachinas (Kat'sinas) are the spirits of nature and the messengers and teachers sent by the Great Spirit. The Sumerians believed KAT.SI.NA were righteous ones sent of God.

The Hopi believe Eototo is the Father of Katsinas. The Sumerians believed EA.TA was the Father of all beings.

The Hopi believe Chakwaina is the Chief of Warriors. The Sumerians believed TAK.AN.U was the Heavenly Destroyer.

The Hopi believe Nan-ga-Sohu is the Chasing Star Katsina. The Sumerians believed NIN.GIR.SU to be the Master of Starships.

The Hopi believe Akush to be the Dawn Katsina. The Sumerians believed AK.U to be Beings oflight.

The Hopi believe Danik to be Guardians in the Clouds. The Sumerians believed DAK.AN to be Sky Warriors.

The Hopi believe Sotunangu is a Sky Katsina. The Sumerians believed TAK.AN.IKU were Sky Warriors.

The Hopi name for the Pleaides is ChooChookam. The Sumerians believed SHU. SHU.KHEM were the supreme Stars.

The Hopi believe Tapuat is the name of Earth. The Sumerians believed Tiamat was the name of Earth.

The Hopi call a snake Chu'a. The Sumerians called a snake SHU.

The Hopi word for "dead" is Mokee. The Sumerians used KI. MAH to mean "dead."

The Hopi use Omiq to mean above, up. The Sumerians used AM.IK to mean looking to Heaven.

The Hopi believe Tuawta is One Who Sees Magic. The Sumerians believed TUAT.U was One from the Other World.

The Hopi believe Pahana was the Lost Brother who would one day return to assist the Hopi and humankind. The Sumerians would recognize PA.HA.NA as an Ancestor from heaven who would return.

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Aarionrhod 05:39, 29 April 2007 (UTC)aarionrhod~This is text above is all pretty nonsensical. Wishful thinking. BTW Pahanna was a Hopi.

In terms of the Hopi not being a 'tribe', I believe it works somewhat the same way ancient Greece did. Divided up by Polises, and yet nationally 'Hellenic'... The Hopi, I presume, work in a similar manner to this--they share a language and culture, but not a centralised government.

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Aarionrhod 05:39, 29 April 2007 (UTC)aarionrhod~ that is correct.

The Spider Clan, who are linked with the infamous and evil Spider Woman, were a very low status clan.

Can someone elaborate on this and clarify whether or not it is linked to Teotihuacan Spider Woman? --Sam 21:21, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

If you read Hopi stories about themselves you will find that the Bear Clan is the most prestigious clan. In the stories Spider Woman figures as a devious destructive character up to no good. This spills over into feelings about the Spider Clan which I believe is extinct in Hopi. There is no cultural link to Teotihuacan Spider Woman but you must realize that before the coming of the Whites there was extensive contact, mostly due to the turquoise trade, beween Mexico and the Pueblo cultures, (but Hopi was not a major turquoise producing area). Spider Woman does figure into Navaho mythology. You might try this book (I just searched for it and have not read it): G. M. Mullett,Spider Woman Stories: Legends of the Hopi Indians, University of Arizona Press, 1979, trade paperback, 142 pages, ISBN 0816506213. In an excerpt from this book at http://www.uapress.arizona.edu/samples/sam324.htm Spider Woman is briefly characterized as a Great Mother figure. Another Spider Woman story that puts her in a positive light, but hints at rivalry with the Bear Clan is at http://www.ilhawaii.net/~stony/lore88.html. Another http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/hopi/toth/toth162.htm. Yet another http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/hopi/toth/toth137.htm. A contemporary reference http://www.ilhawaii.net/~stony/chiefdan.html. Hopi Creation myth http://www.drlamay.com/creation_story_hopi.htm After reading all these, perhaps the characterization of Spider Woman as "infamous and evil" is wrong. Fred Bauder 13:49, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Here is a bit more on the rivalry between the Bear Clan and the Spider Clan: http://www.earthbow.com/native/hopi/bearclan.htm. A Spider Clan chief speaks http://www.grahamhancock.com/library/fotg/c52-8.htm. On balance I think the reference in the article ought to be removed. Fred Bauder 14:02, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Aarionrhod 05:39, 29 April 2007 (UTC)aarionrhod~The Bear Clan is the preeminent clan - prestigious is incorrect. The Bear clan, specifically the Black Bear clan, is traditionally the leadership clan.

Claim that Hopi word for "Sun" is Tibetan word for "Moon"

As frequently as web sites claim that the Hopi word for "moon" is the Tibetan word for "sun" and the Hopi word for "love" is Tibetan word for "hate", etc., I can't find any proof of such (which would be easy enough to provide were it true). In fact I find one source that holds the claim as false. Take a look at a web posting [1] which quotes a Professor Richard Hayes as debunking this myth. A visit to McGill University's web site shows that Prof Hays really exists and indeed is a Sanskrit scholar, although his website doesn't address this myth. We could write & ask him if we really want confirmation. More evidence is the account of the Dalai Lama's first meeting with the Hopi in 1979 [2]. Per that article, the Tibetans and Hopis did indeed shared a love of turquoise, textiles, and a distaste for political oppression. No mention of any word symmetries, although the Hopi elders did say "Welcome Home" to him in Hopi (the article doesn't suggest he could understand it without translation). The Hopi elders certainly wanted to promote a sense of solidarity with the world-renowned lama and there's nothing wrong with that, but the "just so" stories about moon/sun, love/hate (and the additional story here on the talk page on mirrors between Sumerian and Hopi words) don't seem to be based in facts. Is this an urban legend? Maybe rural legend? In any case I've deleted it until someone can show the actual words. technopilgrim 00:52, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This meeting was brokered by Hanne and Maurice Strong. Hanne frequently adds this sort of tidbit to her observations. She actually believes there is some relationship between Tibetans and Hopis despite obvious physiological differences. Fred Bauder 02:20, Mar 25, 2004 (UTC)

I just happen to have the Hopìikwa Lavàytutuveni (Hopi Dictionary) on hand ATM, so let me give the Hopi words:

(Language)	Sun	Moon	Love	Hate
Hopi	taawa	muuyaw	nami'nangwa	'itsivu
Tibetan	ཉི་མ་ (nyi ma)	ཟླ་བ་ (zla ba)	རྩེ་བ་ (rtse ba), ༓དགའ་པོ་ (dga' po)	སྡང་བ་ (sdang ba)
Mandarin	rì	yuè	ài	zēng
Aymara	inti	phaxsi	munaña
Quechua	inti	killa
Guarani	kuarahy	jasi	mborayhu	py'aro
Mapudungun	antü	küyen	poyenyen	güdechen
O'odham	taṣ	maṣad	taccuidag	obgadag
Navajo	jóhonaa'éí	ooljéé'
W. Apache
Chemehuevi
Karen

zlaba does indeed sound somewhat like taawa, and nyima does indeed sound somewhat like muuyaw (or rather an inverted form, ie "yuumaw"). Other than the fact that sdangba rhymes with nami'nangwa, I see little, if any, resemblance. There does seem to be some resemblance between rtseba and `itsivu, but it's hard to put my finger on it... though there is the ts->ts, b->v...

Node 00:03, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I should also probably note that such types of resemblances mean nothing in historical linguistics unless your name is Joseph Greenberg. If there *is* a relationship between Hopi and Tibetan, it would almost undoubtedly not be a direct relationship but rather a relationship between Sino-Tibetan and Uto-Aztecan (perhaps even more indirect if there are other groupings above Sino-Tibetan and Uto-Aztecan that do not relate the two to one another; perhaps Amerind or Sino-Dene if you subscribe to that crap)

I can't help but notice that combining the Tibetan and Hopi words for 'sun' we arrive at "nyi-ma taa-wa", which is nearly identical to Pig Latin for "many waters". How can this be explained? Hopi sun + Tibetan sun = many waters? One possibility is that it describes the linguistic gulf ('many waters') that separates these two poor disenfranchised cultures, but this is only a guess. I wonder if "ixnay irror-may" means anything in Uto-Aztecan? :) technopilgrim 01:14, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Word connection between Hopi and Tibetan word for sun

You are right that the Tibetan word for sun is indeed "slaba" but it is actually pronounced "dawa", which has a striking ressemlblence to "tawa". At first I neither believed this word-connection between the two nations truly exists, but when I found out that the Hopi word for Sun was "tawa" I was really astonished. Unfortunately it seems that the tibetan word for Sun, "nyema" does not ressemble the Hopi word. Maybe there are several words for the Hopi moon, or the information was only given out of the will to underline Tibetan and Hopi connection. The same as for Love and Hate..

It is also important to notice that Tibetan words have, in their written form, many pre-, post-, super- and subscribed consonnants which are either not pronounced at all or which transform, in certain combinations, their apparent sound into another, as it is the case for "sl" in "slaba" which transforms into the sound of "d". The same for the second part of the word, "ba" which is pronounced "wa". Therefore, when comparing the words "rtseba" and "itsivu" there is a clear ressemblence as to the emplacement of the consonants, where "b" and "v" are traditionnaly in the same "family" of consonnants, aswell as "t" and "d" are.

This is essentially irrelevant. Orthodox historical linguistics methods have not shown Tibetan to be related to Hopi. Even the crackpot Joseph Greenberg thought Hopi was more closely related to Mapudungun than to Tibetan. For curiosity value, I have added the words for "sun", "moon", "love", and "hate" above in other Native American languages which Greenberg classified as "Amerind", as well as in a couple of other Sino-Tibetan languages and Navajo and W. Apache, since according to some (crackpots), Navajo and W. Apache are more closely related to Tibetan than is Hopi. And, I can assure you, there is only one word for "moon" in Hopi. While the information was indeed given by me just to undermine the connection, that was essentially because I really don't see one, and I have not altered data at all. If you wish, you're welcome to go on a quest worthy of Edo Nyland and pay the 98 dollars it will cost you to buy Hopiìkwa Lavàytutuveni. --Node

Better yet. The "extra" consonants in Tibetan are written because at the time when writing was introduced in Tibet they were pronounced. Tibetan is like French, only worse.

Never mind random similarities between languages. There's an Australian language where the word for "dog" is dog – the closest relatives of that language have guduga, so it is obvious the resemblance is pure random.

Hopi has relations to Tibetans? Hey people, is this an encyclopedy or some kind of [[new

age]] bullshit? Cornplanter 23:51, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Aarionrhod 05:39, 29 April 2007 (UTC)aarionrhod~from Hopi 9/15/06 There is no connection between Hopi and Tibet. Like the so-called "fifth world", this is a fabrication by people who think they know more about Hopi than the Hopi themselves.

RE: I am Hopi myself -and it was said by the elders themeselves. How can you be hopi and be so ignorant? geeze your like the Apaches at my school. there is a prophecy abouth the fifth world, and the elders feel that this will happen very soon. you cannot deny what has been said by our people. -a Maana of 3rd Mesa

Cornplanter~ This is an encyclopedia and acutally it is covering some interested topics that I have also read about. And it is not "new age bullshit" as you call it but a reference that all things are interconnected. Whether or not it is obvious to one's eye that one culture has influenced the other, or that they are very similar in some respects, both are very poweful in ways that we may not be able to understand my friend. It has also been said that if one travels from Hopiland through the center of the earth they will end up in Tibet.

Excuse me, how stupid can one be? Both are on the northern hemisphere!!! If you travel from Hopiland through the center of the Earth, you arrive somewhere off Kerguelen, halfway between Australia and South Africa.

Aarionrhod 05:39, 29 April 2007 (UTC)aarionrhod~ Precicsely!Well put!

Any input?

MYTH: Aarionrhod 05:39, 29 April 2007 (UTC)aarionrhod~Hello from Hopi. There are only four worlds. This is the fourth and final world. According to the Hopi, this is all there is; this is it; there is no next world.

Census figures

Just a quick explanation for why I removed the sentence on the census figures being lower than the true numbers. While it may well be true, without sourcing, the claim is basically original research. Since what matters concerning something's inclusion in Wikipedia is not truth, but verafiability, I removed the claim until/unless a source can be found for it. --Miskwito 05:07, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Aarionrhod 05:39, 29 April 2007 (UTC)aarionrhod~ Well, I just put it back in Miskwito - whoever you are. It is not a claim. This is common knowledge and it is easily verified by cross-referencing other sources. "Not truth, but verafiability[sic]" Utter nonsense! You clearly have an agenda! 10:27pm 28 April 2007 MST

No, I'm afraid it's not "utter nonsense". It's Wikipedia policy. To quote from the very first sentence of Wikipedia:Verifiability: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth" (bolding not mine). "Common knowledge" isn't good enough. I have no agenda except for wanting to keep original research and unverified claims out of Wikipedia articles. --Miskwito 06:25, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Aarionrhod 16:17, 29 April 2007 (UTC)aarionrhod~ Miskwito: Mindboggling! What on earth is wrong with original research? Where do you think all the stuff that goes in books come from!!!! What are your credentials?

Aarionrhod 05:47, 29 April 2007 (UTC)aarionrhod~ Miskwito - I will add sources. Please do not remove that statement again.

What do you mean, what are my credentials? You don't need credentials to edit Wikipedia. Everything I've said is completely in line with Wikipedia policy. "Original Research" in this context means we as Wikipedia editors can't draw our own conclusions (from sources or not), and then add those conclusions to articles. So an unsourced statement about how census figures are probably artificially low appears to be original research--if it's based just on "common knowledge" rather than a published source, then adding it is adding personal speculation (whether true or not), which is counter to Wikipedia policy. I won't remove the material again immediately, but you need to find a source soon; policy dictates than any unsourced information can be removed at any time, and that the burden of proof falls on those wanting to add claims rather than those wanting to remove it. --Miskwito 22:09, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Miskwito: I am absolutely not drawing my own conclusions regarding the statement I made. I live in Hopi and it is a very well known fact here. The singular non-participation of many if not the majority of Hopi in government programs and activities is both extremely well-known and well documented.

I have also read many, many, so-called facts in books and other published material on Hopi that bear no semblance to veracity or accuracy regarding the facts. How does the act of publishing something make it into a fact?

Notwithstanding, I will find published corroboration.

I asked your about you credentials beacuse I notice that you seem to have appointed yourself as some kind of arbiter on matters Native American/Indian.

That said, I read the Wikepedia rules/guidelines and of course you are correct about Wikepedia policy. Nothing that is "original" i.e. unpublished. Well, I find that particularly ironic with regard information pertaining to Hopi, since a) the culture is (still) primarliy an oral one b) that the amount of incorrect information not to say garbage and bullshit that has been published about Hopi over the years (a lot of which I have seen) is absolutely staggering. I have spent he past several sessions on this article trying to rectify some of that.

However, since Wikepedia - with regard to the topic under discussion - is fine about leaving in garbage just as long as it is severally published or oft-repeated garbage, I am throwing in the towel. Garbage away. I know that I for one will not consulting Wikipedia for any accurate information. And that, is it not, the actual object of the exercise. Well, in my book it is. And this clearly is not my kind of book. Aarionrhod 19:30, 1 May 2007 (UTC)aarionrhod~

Why do you think letting people put in whatever they want to put in without any way to verify it would be more valuable than trying to make material checkable?--Prosfilaes 21:25, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Moved from /comments subsection

The Hopi, Tewa, Navajo are so inter- married now, it's hard to find a true Hopi. I spent a lot of time on Old Oraibi, with the great grand son of Chief Lanza. Patrick Lanza and Lonnie Nutuma, on my blog I have posted photos they had me take. (RD47BLOG) Google. Their are Hopi only living in three villages Oraibi, Moenkopi and one other I forgot. Oraibi is the only village, where there still living the ancient way. Rest of rez lives like the whites, a mess. The only way anyone could understand any of the Hopi ways, would be to attend every secret dance and that just not going to happen. Nobody is more secret than the Hopi People.Nothing written down, just there dances to carry on the story. rd47art@yahoo.com please write. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.13.141.180 (talk • contribs)

This is absolute unadulterated nonsense! Suggest this comment is removed on the grounds of being jaw-droppingly incorrect! P.S. the blog is unadulterated nonsense. too. ~aarionrhod~ nov 17th 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aarionrhod (talk • contribs) 22:01, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Whatever happened to the Hopi-website? Does it still exist? Already for months the page is unavailable? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.162.133.112 (talk) 17:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Nope, the "RD47BLOG" nonsense is still there. And by "still there" I mean "still crazy conspiratorial 'Zionist-this' and 'UFO-that' nutcase horseshit."

What is it about the Hopi that attracts so many batshit-crazy Anglos? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.56.27.117 (talk) 12:38, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Archive 1

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Hopi/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

In reply to calling the fact that the "Hopi" and the "Sumerian's" have nothing in common is not true. At a minimum of three are true, "Pleiades Story", "Lost Brother" and "Twins", in fact the same three studies show up in the "Bible","Mayan" history and the "Hopi".People who go up and write stories about the "Hopi" are at best, at the mercy of the person telling the story, their is no way to reference what he's tell you, and the women don't talk. When reading some of the author stories, about the "Hopi", you have to read between the lines and spend time with a "Traditionist", but their not to far off. "Honkies" have always been, all knowing when talking about the "Hopi" way, hard to remove their "Christ" based beliefs and be open to "Hopi" ways, sorry but true.(read comments)The "Hopi" are the greatest story never told. rd47 bye

Last edited at 23:20, 27 March 2014 (UTC). Substituted at 14:58, 1 May 2016 (UTC)