Talk:Holywell

Requested move 24 July 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:45, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

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• Holywell (disambiguation) → Holywell
• Holywell → Holywell, Flintshire

– Considering the amount of places called Holywell I doubt there is a primary topic[[1]] and Holy well is a major topic. Crouch, Swale (talk) 06:12, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

• Support. No primary topic. The current 'Holywell' might get more views, but it's not by much on some days. Anarchyte (work | talk) 09:50, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 18 November 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 18:36, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

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• Holywell → Holywell (disambiguation)
• Holywell, Flintshire → Holywell

– The Flintshire town has the most commonly visited page from the DAB page, and it's visited more often than the other place articles linked to from the DAB page are in total. I don't know if you can glean any useful information from the ngram page.

The Holywell DAB page was only visited 122 times in October, but WikiNav has some statistics for it anyway. 38 visitors went on to the Holywell, Flintshire article, 29 visits were filtered from the results, and none are recorded for any other destination. This does, at least, show that most of links people followed to another article from the DAB page were to the Flintshire town. September's data appears similar, but I don't know how to get a "filtered" total for it.

Holywell, Flintshire is more frequently visited than the other Holywell pages, with 20,980 visits over a year compared with 7,923 for the Cornish Holywell and 10,019 in total for the various other places listed on the DAB page. Given how few people visit the DAB page, I don't think a hatnote would need to be more than just {{about|the town in Flintshire}} after this move.

References

Aoeuidhtns (talk) 17:49, 18 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BegbertBiggs (talk) 23:46, 2 December 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans (talk) 18:25, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Addendum: Print encyclopaediae often have an entry for the Holywell in Flintshire. appears in various print encyclopaediae.. The only one I've seen which covers other places called Holywell is "A Dictionary of British Place Names.

References

Aoeuidhtns (talk) 18:31, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

• Weak oppose per the previous request the generic meaning Holy well probably has enough long-term significance for this generic name. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:01, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

  @Crouch, Swale Holy well might be worth including in the hatnote? PamD 14:34, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

  @PamD: Yes if moved that's probably a good idea having a "not to be confused with" after the normal hatnote but if we don't move the Flintshire town to the base name we probably don't need it. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:13, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

  • I couldn't find any evidence that people were actually going from the DAB article to the holy well one. I did find out that 19 people (or one person with a very twitchy finger) went from the Holywell, Flintshire article to the holy well one in September, I assume using the link in the third paragraph. It's possible that people are going to "Holywell" hoping for a page on sacred wells in general, and then going back to the search box when that doesn't work, but people like that won't care what sort of article "Holywell" actually is.

References

• I don't think 38 identified outgoing compared to incoming 122 (~31%) suffices to properly indicate primary topic per WP:PTOPIC. Mass views doesn't really indicate a huge difference either. It's overall too little traffic to be certain in short-circuiting. A Google Books search does not indicate a clear primary topic, and there are also a lot of references to Holywell Coombe, which is a different site that we don't seem to have an article about yet. One thing that should be done is to move the most popular link to the top per MOS:DABCOMMON. --Joy (talk) 11:27, 19 November 2023 (UTC)
  • To be honest, I struggle to follow the logic of "no primary target if wikinav reports few results". If few people visit a DAB page (possibly because so many people reach pages using Wikipedia's search box or an external search engine instead), does this really mean that the DAB should have the most memorable name? I realise that this isn't the place for this sort of discussion, though.

On Google Books, I'm a bit wary as Google knows where you live. If I search for Holywell here, 9 of the first 10 results were books on the town in Flintshire, with one being on Holywell cum Needingworth in Cambridgeshire. I'm assuming that you saw something else.

I've made Holywell Coombe a redirect to Folkestone to Etchinghill Escarpment, as that a bit of information about it. I hadn't heard of it before, though, so I haven't added a link to it on this page.

The 31% you mention is 57% of the visitors who followed one of the links in the article. I don't know if there's any way to find out what the other visitors did after visiting the DAB page, but I don't think the fact that they didn't follow one of those links shows that they aren't looking for the town. Aoeuidhtns (talk) 18:31, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

I've moved the Welsh town to the top. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:17, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

The main issue with this overall argument seems to be WP:NWFCTM.

The fact that visitors didn't make progress with a navigation aid can mean multiple things, of course, and it's possible that they just couldn't find what they were looking for and that that thing was the otherwise most popular one. To blindly assume that they were looking for any specific thing in absence of data showing so, however, would not make sense. --Joy (talk) 08:28, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

• I agree, and that's why I criticised your 31% figure. All wikinav shows is that most of the visitors who followed one of the links on the page followed the same one. It doesn't even show that none of the other options gained a significant number of clicks, as the page filters out rare origin-destination pairs rather than just rare destinations.

Having more people go to a DAB page than follow a link from there is normal (although I notice that it reports the opposite for Galicia).

And could you explain a bit about how you feel WP:NWFCTM relates to this discussion? Thanks. Aoeuidhtns (talk) 22:55, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

The problem is that with such low numbers it's just so easy for all this to be wrong. For example, if in another month there were 9 filtered clickstreams to another town, 7 to another two, 5 to another two, and 4 to another couple - that would already be 41, more than these 38, and a claim that this one is significantly more likely to be looked for than all the others combined would be false. The standard of WP:PTOPIC isn't to short-circuit to the thing that first comes to mind to most people, but to short-circuit where there's such an overwhelming amount of interest in one topic compared to all the others that it's actually odd to the average reader if we force them to jump through hoops to get to that one. --Joy (talk) 08:46, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

• My apologies; I misunderstood what WikiNav showed. The "filtered" total is a count of the visitors who went to Holywell with another Wikipedia page as the referrer. There isn't a count of how many visits there were to Wikipedia pages with Holywell as the referrer, and you can't work it out from the destination pages as (e.g.) Holywell, Cornwall has as many as 36 "filtered" visits.

What the data does show is that there were 561 instances over a year where someone went from Holywell to Holywell, Flintshire, and there is no other page which had more than 10 visits with Holywell as referrer in one calendar month. Per WP:PT1, this shows that the topic is much more likely to be the topic sought than any other, but it does not show whether or not it is more likely (not "much more likely") to be sought than the other topics are in total.

As before, pageviews shows both things (Holywell, Flintshire had more than twice as many views over a year as any other place linked to from Holywell, and significantly more than the others had in total), but I feel page names matter less to (for example) people visiting from a search engine.

One thing which has happened recently is that the bishops' conference has declared St Winefride's Well in the town to be a National Shrine. It's only been reported by the local and religious media, as far as I can see, , and doesn't seem to have affected numbers on Wikipedia.

Aoeuidhtns (talk) 23:08, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Over a year? I think WikiNav only shows 2 calendar months, and even that is partial? Did you go into the raw clickstream data for that 561? --Joy (talk) 10:36, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

@Aoeuidhtns and Joy: Here's the raw clickstream data for links from Holywell.

clickstream (2020-)

clickstream-enwiki-2020-01.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 100 clickstream-enwiki-2020-02.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 93 clickstream-enwiki-2020-03.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 46 clickstream-enwiki-2020-04.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 98 clickstream-enwiki-2020-05.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 168 clickstream-enwiki-2020-05.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Cornwall link 10 clickstream-enwiki-2020-05.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Oxford link 10 clickstream-enwiki-2020-05.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Eastbourne link 10 clickstream-enwiki-2020-06.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 73 clickstream-enwiki-2020-06.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Cambridgeshire link 10 clickstream-enwiki-2020-07.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Cornwall link 15 clickstream-enwiki-2020-07.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 96 clickstream-enwiki-2020-07.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Eastbourne link 10 clickstream-enwiki-2020-07.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Cambridgeshire link 12 clickstream-enwiki-2020-08.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 84 clickstream-enwiki-2020-09.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 96 clickstream-enwiki-2020-10.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 68 clickstream-enwiki-2020-11.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 55 clickstream-enwiki-2020-12.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Cambridgeshire link 12 clickstream-enwiki-2020-12.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 52 clickstream-enwiki-2021-01.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Cambridgeshire link 10 clickstream-enwiki-2021-01.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 60 clickstream-enwiki-2021-02.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 51 clickstream-enwiki-2021-02.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Cornwall link 11 clickstream-enwiki-2021-03.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 78 clickstream-enwiki-2021-04.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Cornwall link 11 clickstream-enwiki-2021-04.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 58 clickstream-enwiki-2021-05.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 56 clickstream-enwiki-2021-06.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 71 clickstream-enwiki-2021-07.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 62 clickstream-enwiki-2021-08.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 64 clickstream-enwiki-2021-09.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 58 clickstream-enwiki-2021-10.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 68 clickstream-enwiki-2021-11.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 62 clickstream-enwiki-2021-12.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 38 clickstream-enwiki-2022-01.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 39 clickstream-enwiki-2022-02.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 41 clickstream-enwiki-2022-03.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Cambridgeshire link 13 clickstream-enwiki-2022-03.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 61 clickstream-enwiki-2022-04.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 62 clickstream-enwiki-2022-05.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 53 clickstream-enwiki-2022-06.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 28 clickstream-enwiki-2022-07.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 57 clickstream-enwiki-2022-08.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 78 clickstream-enwiki-2022-09.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 38 clickstream-enwiki-2022-10.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 37 clickstream-enwiki-2022-11.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 50 clickstream-enwiki-2022-12.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 43 clickstream-enwiki-2023-01.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 55 clickstream-enwiki-2023-02.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 39 clickstream-enwiki-2023-03.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 52 clickstream-enwiki-2023-04.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 55 clickstream-enwiki-2023-05.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 54 clickstream-enwiki-2023-06.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 47 clickstream-enwiki-2023-07.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 48 clickstream-enwiki-2023-08.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 48 clickstream-enwiki-2023-09.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 32 clickstream-enwiki-2023-10.tsv.gz:Holywell Holywell,_Flintshire link 38

NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 03:44, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• Comment - I'm guessing WP:SMALLDETAILS applies so "Holywell" has to be redirected to "Holy well"? DankJae 17:36, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

  I don't know, does that cover spacing? I'm at a bit of a loss for examples, but I can see that Burnt Island and Burntisland coexist with few people going from one to the other, and they're even pronounced the same way.

  My reading of the WP:SMALLDETAILS section is that, even for capitalisation, punctuation and spelling changes, having similarly named articles is fine so long as people can quickly find their way to the right page. It allows you to use another name which meets WP:CRITERIA, but Holywell is the most concise, natural and recognisable name for the town, and the one preferred by WP:UKPLACE.

  Aoeuidhtns (talk) 00:26, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

References

• Oppose the current disambiguation performs its function. MrKeefeJohn (talk) 07:52, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.