Talk:Holy of Holies (LDS Church)

Untitled

With the pluralistic reconfiguration of the Most Holy Place article, this article is redundant.--Rojerts 20:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Removed comment: "It should be noted that there are no official Church publications which verify the existence of a Holy of Holies, and that such a principle is not actively taught in the LDS Church."

To substantiate that the Holy of Holies of the Salt Lake Temple has been verified by the Church, please see http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=366 --Rojerts 15:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

For the second time, removed "It should be noted..." comment. Please respond in this forum if you'd like to challenge the citation to James E. Talmage's "The House of the Lord: A Study of Holy Sanctuaries, Ancient and Modern," which book was authorized by the Church via Pres. Joseph F. Smith. The FARMS article is an easy way to reference Elder Talmage's work; for specifics on the Holy of Holies, see article wording that begins with "Of particular interest was plate 27, a photograph of the Holy of Holies with a detailed description of the room and its stained glass window—"a splendid art-window" (p. 139) picturing the visitation of the Father and the Son to Joseph Smith in the Sacred Grove" (http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=366). Thanks,--Rojerts 19:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, but having read the articles, I see nothing that would substantiate the claim that the church actively teaches what the purpose of the Holy of Holies is. Can you provide any citation that does?

See the citation I put in the article. Also Talmage , James E. wrote in The House of the Lord, "This room is reserved for the higher ordinances in the Priesthood relating to the exaltation of both living and dead" (pp192-194). BTW, this book was written by Talmage at the request of the First Presidency and along with Articles of Faith and Jesus the Christ is widely respected within the Church as containing doctrine that is in harmony with the Church's teachings (the latter two being amongst only 5 books other than scripture that every missionary from The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS must take with him on his mission. --Trödel 20:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Trödel's reference is great. We might also consider putting in a reference to Jesus the Christ, pgs. 192-194.

In addition to these references, I would ask to the unnamed questioner: Are not the scriptures the teachings of the Church, and is it not quite clear from the scriptures as to at least one function of a Holy of Holies? True that it may not be mentioned in the Conferences of the Church. But there are many active teachings of the Church that are taught dependent on location and audience. With the case of the Holy of Holies, Talmage obviously thought it not inappropriate to mention the room and give a hint towards its usage.

I would also say that the Holy of Holies is to the modern prophet as the Sacred Grove was to Joseph Smith. To accept the Sacred Grove and not the Holy of Holies is to deny a central tenet of Latter-day Saint theology.--Rojerts 21:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

But what I'm not seeing, and what could put this all to rest, is some sort of evidence that Talmage, or any other member of Church leadership, has taught, or teaches today, that the Prophet goes to the Holy of Holies to literally convene with God. This appears to be speculation, much like some of the "active teachings" that are limited to location and audience. And if that is in fact true, and it is only taught to a limited amount of people in limited circumstances, why are you broadcasting it in an Encyclopedia?

I'm not sure how the scriptures are "speculation." It's quite clear from the scriptures what the usage of a Holy of Holies is, and we have produced citations from valid sources verifying such a room exists within the Salt Lake Temple. I have taken the time to dig up several sources that further expand upon the existence and usage of the room, and will paste them below. My favorites include the first quote by Joseph Smith were he states that you can only know God after you go into the Holy of Holies, and the last quote by the Quorum of the Twelve that they delivered to the world via every newspaper and encyclopedia that would publish it. Upon this one tenet revolves all of LDS theology; if God does not speak to His prophet, then there is no validity to the Restoration. What is presented in this encylopedia is in no way violating the sacred, but reinforcing that it exists!

Here are the quotes

• The keys are certain signs and words by which false spirits and personages may be detected from true, which cannot be revealed to the Elders till the Temple is completed... . The Elders must know them all to be endowed with power, to finish their work and prevent imposition. The devil knows many signs but does not know the sign of the Son of Man, or Jesus. No one can truly say he knows God until he has handled something, and this can only be done in the Holiest of Holies. Joseph Smith, 1 May 1842, Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, 119-20.

• We want to labor as a body of Priesthood, to enter into the holy of holies; we want to come before God, and pray until we get the spirit of this work, until we comprehend our calling before God. Wilford Woodruff, Delivered at Nephi, Utah, Saturday Afternoon, January 27, 1883.

• That which is sacred has long been protected from the eyes of the curious public. It has been true from earliest times. Did the masses of the people obtain admission to the sacred tabernacle of ancient Israel? Could they view or handle the ark of the covenant? Were they admitted into the sacred precincts of the Holy Temple built anciently to the name of the Lord? Are they permitted into the Holy of Holies of any age? Mark E Peterson, A Faith to Live By (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1959), pp. 311-12 [note the switch from "were" to "are" when referring to the Holy of Holies, as well as the phrase "of any age."]

• Last Friday we stood in the temple and saw again a symbol that is not unique to us. It shows up in other cultures. It is the all-seeing eye. Not long after, we stood in front of that magnificent stained glass which is part of the sanctuary called the Holy of Holies, photographed in Brother Talmage's book.* Two Personages, the Father and the Son, are manifesting themselves to the boy Prophet. Now we saw the eyes in His glorious face. That face, the Prophet said, exactly resembled the Father's . It is a face of infinite compassion. Truman G. Madsen November 16, 1965. “The Commanding Image of Christ,” An Address Given to the BYU Student Body.

• In response to D&C 124:2-8, the Twelve delivered the following:

PROCLAMATION OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

To All the Kings of the World, to the President of the United States of America; To the Governors of the Several States, and to the Rulers and People of All Nations.

[a little more than half way through the document]

Christ [. . .] will establish a holy city, and temple, and seat of Government among them, which shall be called Zion.

And there shall be His Tabernacle, His Sanctuary, His Throne, and seat of Government for the whole continent of North and South America forever; in short, it will be to the western hemisphere what Jerusalem will be to the eastern. [p. 132]

And there the Messiah will visit them in person; and the old Saints, who will then have been raised from the dead, will be with Him; and He will establish His kingdom and laws over all the land...

The despised and degraded son of the forest, who has wandered in dejection and sorrow, and suffered reproach, shall then drop his disguise and stand forth in manly dignity, and exclaim to the Gentiles who have envied and sold him—“I am Joseph; does my father yet live?” or, in other words, I am a descendant of that Joseph who was sold into Egypt. You have hated me, and sold me, and thought I was dead; but lo! I live and am heir to the INHERITANCE, TITLES, HONOURS, PRIESTHOOD, SCEPTRE, CROWN, THRONE, and eternal life and dignity of my fathers, who live for evermore.

He shall then be ordained, washed, anointed with holy oil, and arrayed in fine linen, even in the glorious and beautiful garments and royal robes of the high priesthood, which is after the order of the Son of God; and shall enter into the congregation of the Lord, even into the Holy of Holies, there to be crowned with authority and power which shall never end.

The spirit of the Lord shall then descend upon him like the dew upon the mountains of Hermon, and like refreshing showers of rain upon the flowers of Paradise... He shall also behold his Redeemer, and be filled with His presence, while the cloud of His glory shall be seen in His temple.

[at the end of the document]

We also make a solemn and an earnest request of all editors of newspapers, both in this country and other countries to publish this proclamation. It certainly contains news, such as is not met with at all times, and in every place, and cannot fail to interest the reading public, especially those who [p. 138] have prayed every day of their lives for the Lord’s kingdom to come, and [or His will to be done on the earth, as it is done in heaven.

President Wilford Woodruff, who superintends the publishing department of the Latter-day Saints, in Liverpool, England, is also requested to give this proclamation a wide circulation throughout England, Scotland, Ireland, and the Isle of Man.

Elder Jones, our minister to Wales, is hereby instructed to publish the same in the Welsh language, and circulate it widely throughout that country. —Millennial Star, Oct. 22, 1845.

--Rojerts 21:09, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Some additional references, this time from the scriptures:

• Those Who Hold the Keys of the Greater Priesthood Hold the Keys Necessary to See God and Live:

D&C 84

19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.

20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.

23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his danger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;

• The Oracles of the Church are Received in the Most Holy Place or Holy of Holies:

D&C 124:39

Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your anointings, and your washings, and your baptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments, for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.

• The First Presidency Receives the Oracles for the Church:

D&C 124:126

I give unto [Joseph Smith] for counselors my servant Sidney Rigdon and my servant William Law, that these may constitute a quorum and First Presidency, to receive the oracles for the whole church.

• Historical Reference to the Holy of Holies and the Oracle:

1 Kings 6:16

Speaking of Solomon’s Temple--

And he built twenty cubits on the sides of the house, both the floor and the walls with boards of cedar: he even built them for it within, even for the oracle, even for the most holy place.

--Rojerts 15:44, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Temples other than Salt Lake with Holy of Holies

I have heard it speculated that temples other than Salt Lake and Manti have had a Holy of Holies built within them, for various reasons. The Ordinance room article specifically mentions one area of the original Nauvoo temple as having been called a "Holy of Holies", and perhaps due to its size and its external similarity to the Salt Lake temple, the Washington D.C. Temple. If it does exist, it may be used as a sealing room in a manner similar to how the one in the Manti Temple is used.

One other little bit of trivia that is missing from this article is the relationship with the Holy of Holies and the "Holy Room", or the external sacred alter room immediately adjacent to the Holy of Holies. While not as sacred as the Holy of Holies, this is certainly a room of very high spiritual sacredness. In modern LDS temples, this room is most commonly referred to as the Celestial room. In the case of the Holy of Holies in both Salt Lake and Manti, these are rooms whose only entrance/exit is facing into the Celestial Room itself.

One unique feature of the Holy of Holies in Salt Lake is a rather large stained glass window that looks rather similar to this image found at the Church History Museum. This can be seen (without actually entering the room, instead seeing the window from the other side) by going to a clerks' office that is adjacent to one of the exits of the Celestial Room, and can be seen by most LDS members who attend endowment sessions in the Salt Lake Temple if they take the time to look. The door to the Holy of Holies itself is usually blocked by a simple table and a modest vase... and a few temple workers who "guard" the room to keep the curious out of there. The doors to this room are filled with panes of frosted glass, so you can't really see what is going on inside. --Robert Horning (talk) 21:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Issues with Talmage Citation

I find it odd that a "citation needed" was couched directly upon a citation.

Several years ago, an anonymous editor constantly demanded citations, saying that none could be produced to support the "claims" of a holy of holies in the SL Temple. Well, after finding multiple citations from big hitters, it still seems as though Talmage isn't authority enough.

Please--if you have an issue, discuss it here. And if this is the same person as before, I'd be nice (but not necessary) if you'd sign your name so that we'd know who we are addressing, and if it's the same person.

Cheers, --Rojerts (talk) 23:38, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I didn't initially place the tag, but I've put it back in again because I think there's been a misunderstanding of what it was calling for. It was actually a "clarify me" tag, which is slightly different. It means that the meaning of the quote is not self-evident on its face, and that it requires clarification or explanation. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 00:41, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

"Most holy place" capitalization

I don't think that "most holy place" should be capitalized as "Most Holy Place" in this particular article. While the name of this place is capitalized in some English-language Bible translations, it is not capitalized in others, including the King James Version. (See here to compare Exodus 26:33 in different versions.) Since the LDS Church has adopted the KJV as its official English-language Bible text, I think it makes sense to follow the capitalization used in the KJV for this particular article. (The term is also not capitalized in the Mormon scripture Doctrine and Covenants.) Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 23:03, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

The whole section needs sourcing and clarification. For one thing, a strictly literal translation of "Kodesh Hakodashim" is "Holy [of] the-Holies" and in Exodus it is a particular place, not a general category of places. Jonathunder (talk) 23:39, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the section in its current form is even necessary. I think it's clear that the LDS Church regards it not as the most holy place referred to in Exodus, but a type patterned after the original. (LDS doctrine and teachings focus significantly on the idea of "types" and symbolic patterns throughout history.) I think all the section is trying to explain is the word origin and that it is a cognate of the biblical placename, but it does so a little awkwardly, I think. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 23:48, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

On your last point, I agree. Jonathunder (talk) 23:54, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

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