Talk:Holy See/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

British English?

It is indicated above that this article is written in American English. However, Catholic Church is indicated to be "written in British English". This "should not be changed without broad consensus", but should't the policy of this article follow that of Catholic Church, after all? (unsigned by PPMS)

No, there is no requirement for consistency between related subjects, only within single articles. Johnbod (talk) 13:19, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

"Holy See (The)" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Holy See (The). Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. TheAwesomeHwyh 19:10, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Budget section needed

The Organization paragraphs on the Holy See's income and revenue should be expanded into a separate Budget section section. Granted that the subject of the Vatican's finances is among the most opaque in the world, could we perhaps see a bulk, putative breakdown of where its income originates and where it spends its money? For example, how much is from the annual Peter's Pence collection, and how much does each country contribute? How much comes from charging admission to the Vatican museums? Also, what are the outlays? How much goes to charitable works? JKeck (talk) 20:00, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

JKeck, This article on the IOR might be of some use. Elizium23 (talk) 15:08, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Title

"Santa Sedes" means "Holy Seat" and it should be corrected in the page title. CityKat13 (talk) 00:37, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Please read WP:AT: "Generally, article titles are based on what the subject is called in reliable sources." It seems that you disagree with those sources, and would like them to use the term that you prefer, but you will first need to convince them (and the Vatican itself) that they have it wrong and you have it right. Only then will we be able to change it on Wikipedia. Regards, HaeB (talk) 03:29, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

the warfare operation'smanual's and manual of God Almighty...as request'ed by Shawn R, Saenz in Octoder of 1987 Monday the 21st at 12:01 am

 Is there such a thing as belief then believe this that was a God in the dark " in the dark or something, more out there "...could it be the truth of Jeheovah? Is there a devil or "evil out there? "....." would we or could we go to war, or should we? ". Why not ask people to try out a little majic in the system ".  A spell in the air for firstimer's! " Then tell to, pray! ". THat is all!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.63.188.146 (talk) 03:00, 11 November 2021 (UTC) 

Second paragraph of terminology

Moved from User talk:Twsabin

 – tw^sabin 17:34, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi Twsabin! Thank you for your comment on my edit. I am writing here, and I apologize if it is not the right place but it is the first time I am dealing with a talk. About the edit: the statement – as it is – is plainly incorrect and do not address the specificity discussed in the the page. The source of my claim is the Annuary of the Holy See, that does not include any "Holy" except the one of Rome: not for the Eastern/oriental, and even less for the Western ones (nor even for the Diocese of Mainz, at p. 431). I think that the specification initially added would be extremely useful. Thank you! - Giannide1 (talk) 01:04, 26 January 2022 (ECT)

@Giannide1: Hi, and I'm glad to see you reply. This is a good place, and a slightly better place would have been the Holy See talk page I think (but it doesn't matter). Your edit has several "moving parts". I think that the part about the Mainz Archbishopric is probably correct, but the change from the previous revision to yours with regard to the statement that all sees are considered holy, creates a disharmony in the text, because the prior version was supported with a reference. You then inserted a different source in the middle of that paragraph which crucially contradicts said statement, and (presumably) the original source too. Even though you may be right, and other experts hypothetically might agree that the unqualified statements about "all sees" is too generalistic (not taking a position on that myself at this moment), the end result, in encyclopedic terms isn't good. Maybe what you should have done is somehow presented the content as different viewpoints. tw^sabin 00:12, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

@Twsabin: Hi again. Thank you for your reply. I will edit again the Mainz part. However I would like to find a point of agreement regarding the first paragraph. The "supporting reference" for the statement "all sees are holy" is a tourist guide book. The reference that I used, instead, is the official annual publication of the Holy See, where all the episcopal sees are listed, preceded by the historical notes. The statement "Every see is considered holy" is plain wrong, and it doesn't contribute to the integrity of the page. If you wish, I can also add other sources that I have available, being Canon law and Vatican law my fields of professional specialty.

Another solution could be to delete the sentence "Every see is considered holy", start the paragraph directly from "In Greek, the adjective....", and editing only the second part of the paragraph where we had a consensus. Thank you and let me know! Giannide1 16:11, 26 January 2022 (ECT)

@Giannide1: Thank you for the thorough reply. You have approached this discussion with candor and patience. After thinking more about the paragraph, seeing how indeed weak the existing reference was, and understanding that it does not in fact support the paragraph as a whole, I have realized that your edit was certainly an incremental improvement, and that reversion was not justified. I undid my revert, and also removed everything pertaining to the Eastern Orthodox Church, as that portion was not referenced, and the impression of contrasting practices between the Churches was particularly unsustainable, given the lack of specific referencing. Hopefully you have other ideas on how to improve the paragraph, and the article, so I encourage you to go ahead! tw^sabin 17:34, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

@Twsabin: Thank you so much! I appreciate your patience and guidance. I am relatively new and try to learn how to edit/interact in the best way. I will make some edits then. Thanks again. Giannide1 19:16, 26 January 2022 (ECT)

Holy See and Freemasonry

Why does this page say "It includes the apostolic episcopal see of the Diocese of Rome, which has universal ecclesiastical jurisdiction over the Catholic Church, the Universal Institution of Freemasonry and the sovereign city-state known as Vatican City." I couldn't find the source for freemasonry online. The rest of the article does not mention freemasonry even once. The Holy See has nothing to do with Freemasonry (they are in fact enemies of each other, really) unless I've been gravely misled in my life. Someone should change this. Apologies for any mistakes, I never never commented on a Wikipedia page before. 88.142.23.222 (talk) 13:44, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for writing. Unfortunately an anti-vandalism user noticed the removal of a sourced information and restored it without controlling if the removed sentence makes sense. Alex2006 (talk) 15:19, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

Jurisdiction

@King Pius: regarding your recent addition, the supreme, immediate, and universal jurisdiction is invested in the Roman Pontiff; I'm not so sure that automatically translates to the Holy See enjoying that same distinction of jurisdiction. I'd be happy to review reliable secondary sources (your Vatican I reference is a primary source). Elizium23 (talk) 18:29, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

The Holy See is the jurisdiction/office of the Roman Pontiff, period, but for some reason, this article states that the Holy See is simply "the jurisdiction of the Pope in his role as the bishop of Rome". I dispute that, but even if that is true, this very article states that "the apostolic episcopal see of the Diocese of Rome" has "universal ecclesiastical jurisdiction over the Catholic Church". This is confirmed by Vatican I, which states that "the Roman church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other church" (Session 4, Chapter 3). King Pius (talk) 10:34, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

So, no secondary sources then? Elizium23 (talk) 04:49, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

The definition of "Holy See" in Donald Attwater's "A Catholic Dictionary" is this (emphasis mine): "The episcopal see of Rome, but generally used as a term to indicate the pope as supreme pontiff, together with those associated with him in government at the Church's headquarters." Does that suffice? King Pius (talk) 13:03, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Where does that refer to jurisdiction? Elizium23 (talk) 16:05, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

The Holy See generally indicates the pope as Supreme Pontiff, not just as Bishop of Rome. King Pius (talk) 03:35, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

The Holy See and the Supreme Pontiff are not interchangeable terms. The Holy See is a bigger thing than the Pope. The Holy See encompasses more and so I'm not seeing how jurisdiction can be ascribed to such a larger entity when jurisdiction belongs to the one who is in office, not to the Curia, not to the whole apparatus in general, but to the officeholder. Elizium23 (talk) 04:03, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

That's not entirely true. It's basic Catholic canon law that the difference between ordinary jurisdiction and delegated jurisdiction is that in ordinary jurisdiction, jurisdiction is attached to an office, whereas in delegated jurisdiction, jurisdiction is commited to a person apart from an office. Needless to say, the jurisdiction of the Pope is not delegated but ordinary. That is why the Pope is, like other diocesan bishops, called an ordinary. King Pius (talk) 06:24, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm still not seeing any secondary sources; let's return to the proposed edit: [The Holy See] has episcopal and immediate jurisdiction over the entire Catholic Church. Are you now saying that the Holy See's jurisdiction is delegated... but immediate and universal? Elizium23 (talk) 06:28, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

For secondary sources regarding the distinction between ordinary and delegated jurisdiction, see the Catholic Encyclopedia and Attwater's dictionary mentioned above. Also, I don't know how you came up with this: Are you now saying that the Holy See's jurisdiction is delegated... but immediate and universal? Above, I said that the Pope's jurisdiction is ordinary. The jurisdiction attached to the Holy See is obviously ordinary. King Pius (talk) 06:35, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

@PPEMES added the "universal jurisdiction" claim to the lede, without a source, in 2018, so perhaps they can chime in here. I've taken it out, until someone can find a source. Elizium23 (talk) 06:46, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

I think this is what you're looking for: "The shepherd exercises immediate authority over all the sheep of his flock. Every member of the Church has been thus committed to Peter and those who follow him. This immediate authority has been always claimed by the Holy See." (Joyce, G. (1911). The Pope. In the Catholic Encyclopedia.) Also, this Wikipedia article defines the Holy See as the "jurisdiction of the Pope in his role as the bishop of Rome" with no source. Shouldn't you delete "in his role as the bishop of Rome" too? King Pius (talk) 06:53, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

I can read that quote ambiguously. Is the Holy See claiming the authority? Or is the Holy See claiming this doctrine of Petrine supremacy? I believe it's the latter. The article you link repeatedly and explicitly discusses the Pope's jurisdiction, primacy, universal authority. If the Holy See is claiming something here, it's claiming that the Pope himself has ex officio jurisdiction and ordinary power. Elizium23 (talk) 07:39, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Since the Diocese of Rome is included in the Holy See, it's the specific office of Bishop of Rome that confers this office and power to the Pope. Elizium23 (talk) 07:40, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

the Diocese of Rome is included in the Holy See?!? The Holy See, is, in the strictest sense, the See/Diocese of Rome. The See of Rome is the Holy See. Can you explain what you think the Holy See means? King Pius (talk) 08:29, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Note that Pope Leo X, in the Fifth Lateran Council, stated this: "...for the salvation of the souls of the same faithful, for the supreme authority of the Roman pontiff and of this holy see, and for the unity and power of the church..." Also note that the Catholic Encyclopedia's article on "Diocese" states: "Some [dioceses], however, are said to be exempt, i.e. from any archiepiscopal jurisdiction, and are placed directly under the authority of the Holy See." According to your reasoning above, they wouldn't be under the authority of the Holy See but only of the Pope. King Pius (talk) 09:15, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

@Elizium23: You've stopped replying for some reason. If you're still unconvinced, how about this: we remove the statement that the Holy See is organized into polities of the Latin Church and the 23 Eastern Catholic Churches, and their dioceses and religious institutes, which is false, as it equates the Holy See with the Catholic Church itself. King Pius (talk) 13:43, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

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