Talk:Holy Family Catholic Church (Orange, California)

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Church Name

Today, I reverted all of the changes naming this church "Holy Family Church." I could find no evidence that such a change has been made. Both the parish and the diocese continue to refer to the church as "Holy Family Cathedral." In a couple of places I have found the parish refers to itself as "The First Cathedral of the Diocese of Orange" and not as the former cathedral of the Diocese of Orange. Until a name and status change has occurred officially, we cannot change its name or status here. The dedication of Christ Cathedral in Garden Grove does not change this church's status or name in itself. We also should not assume what a new name might be until or if it happens. Some former cathedrals are granted the title "Proto-Cathedral," others are called "Old Cathedral," while others are not given such a distinction and are simply called "(Patron Name) Church." This page needs to stay as "Holy Family Cathedral" until an official change has been announced. Farragutful (talk) 17:33, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

I note that the currently cited official page from the City of Orange refers to this is a church (Apparently that page is showing an image of an older church, before the building nof the cathedral. My error). Note that the statement Until a name and status change has occurred officially, we cannot change its name or status here. is absolutely incoprrect. Wikipedia uses the Common name that is tyhe most frequently used name in reliable sources. We do normally want sources for a name change, but they do not need to be "official" sources. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 15:40, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

• Tktru, I notice that you changed the name in the article from "Cathedral" to "church". You did not cite any source for this. Most sources I am able to find still refer to this as a cathedral. Diegobcardenas you moved the page, and made some changes in the article, also without citing any source, and you did not respond to attempts by Farragutful to ask you about this. As recently as 19 June 2019, this official document referred to Holy Family in OC as a "Cathedral". However, this facebook page and this web site refer to it as a church. The second of these gives a different address than the one in the infobox in the article, but the picture seems to be of the same building. Can any of you throw any light on this, or cite any helpful sources? DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 01:55, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

I cannot speak to the Facebook page, although I know they are not always used by the group that it portrays. I noted that "Holy Family Catholic Church" never posts on that page. Other people do. Having said that, the photos are accurate for the Holy Family in question. Also note the bishop's coat of arms above the central chair, which is typical of a cathedra (Bishop's chair) and that is/was the cathedra in Holy Family. However, I don't think that determines anything. The website is incorrect. It is for a different parish in a different community. Although there are some architectural similarities in the church buildings they are distinctly different. The only website I can find for the Holy Family in question is here. Farragutful (talk) 19:42, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Farragutful, Tktru, and Diegobcardenas Please note that I have been quite unable to find any news story or published account of a change to Holy Family OC from a cathedral to a church, which i would have expected. I now believe that is correct that this web site is for a different church in a different location -- I was fooled by the image and the similar name. Diegobcardenas, why did you move the articel and change the name in some (but not all) places in the article? Is there any source which clearly says this change happened? If not is there any reason not to move this back? Tktru, do you know of any reason not to move back? Please respond here as soon as you can. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 22:35, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

• There has been no response, and I still cannot find any source that this has been changed, either officially or in its common name, from a "Cathedral" to a "Church". I have therefore undone the changes, and moved the page back to its previous name. If anyone does have or later finds sources which contradict this, please post here and if any changes are made to the article, please provide sources. @Farragutful, Tktru, and Diegobcardenas: DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 21:19, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

There's a video on YouTube of the Dedication of Christ Cathedral. The opening prayer begins at 7:18. At 14:28, the Nuncio is reading from a decree, which cites a petition from Bishop Vann: "... The title of 'Cathedral' be removed from the Church dedicated to the Holy Family, and located in the City of Orange, that the Church located in the City of Garden Grove, and dedicated to Christ be elevated to the status and dignity of the Cathedral Church of the same Diocese." The decree continues "The Supreme Pontiff, Francis, ... has decided to grant the petition ... the same Supreme Pontiff removes the title of the "Cathedral" from the Church of the Holy Family and elevates aforementioned Church of Christ ...". (As I hear it read.) SlowJog (talk) 02:30, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

The Cathedral article has this line: "A proto-cathedral is the former cathedral of a transferred see." That might seem to apply here, but the article Proto-Cathedral_of_St._James_the_Greater says that church was formally dedicated a proto-cathedral. But, I don't know that was done for Holy Family. SlowJog (talk) 03:15, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't think "proto-cathedral" applies. I don't think the change of cathedrals here is regarded as a transferred see. SlowJog (talk) 16:26, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Holy Family is live-streaming Masses. Behind the alter is a platform with chairs for the celebrants. Behind the chairs, one step higher, is what looks like a marble throne. A cathedra is a chair reserved for the bishop, and I suspect that's what the marble throne is. Having a cathedra is what makes a church a cathedral. SlowJog (talk) 16:26, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Original research

I added the original research template to the article as I can find no proof that Holy Family Cathedral is now Holy Family Church. I have reached out to Diegobcardenas who made the change, but he has failed to respond. Farragutful (talk) 20:47, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Farragutful I could find anything to substantiate this either, so I removed it. Lupin VII (talk) 23:16, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Lupin VII The original research I tagged this article for is renaming Holy Family Cathedral Holy Family Church. You removed information and the sources that support that information. That is the opposite of original research. Farragutful (talk) 12:31, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Farragutful Crap, sorry. Don't Wikipedia when tired is the takeaway from this. Sorry again. Lupin VII (talk) 13:53, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Lupin VII Well now, that gave me a good laugh! Kind regards. Farragutful (talk) 14:34, 20 September 2019 (UTC)