Talk:Hobey Baker/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Sarastro1 (talk) 21:46, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

It may take me a day or two to completely review this, but it is an interesting article. There were some minor and simple prose issues which I have copy-edited as I've read. If I have made a mess of anything, feel free to revert.

Lead:

• "Regarded as the first American star in ice hockey..." This needs to be more precise: regarded by who? Critics? Journalists? Team-mates?

Clarified

Early life:

• " Alfred, known as Bobby to his friends, had played halfback while a student at Princeton University in the 1880s, the same school his father had attended. One of his ancestors was Francis Rawle, a Quaker who immigrated to Philadelphia in 1688 and became one of the most well known and respected members of the city." In this passage, it is very difficult to tell who each piece of information is about; the "he" and "his" make it tricky. Also, the information about Alfred is not covered in the cited reference.

Fixed

• (Old text): "At the age of eleven Alfred and Mary's marriage was starting to end so Baker and his brother Thornton, aged twelve, were sent to St. Paul's School in Concord, New Hampshire" Ref 3 supports the fact of the pair going to St Paul's, but not the reason for it. It states that they were "abandoned to school" but this may be stretching it a little. I've tried to clear this up myself, but please check.

All good

• "Malcolm Gordon, who has been called the father of American hockey..." Called by who?

Clarified

• "Baker was known to be an exceptionally fast skater..." Known by who?

Clarified

• "...as a member of one of the school's societies, the Bogi society." I'm not sure I appreciate the importance or notability of this. If it is important, please specify why.

Not really, so removed

Princeton:

• (Old text, since altered slightly): "Recognized on the field as one of the few players who didn't wear a helmet": Does this mean he was widely known for not wearing a helmet or that it was easy to spot which player he was because he was helmetless?

Fixed

• MOSNUM: some numbers are written as words when all numbers above 10 should be numerals.

Think I got them all, if not let me konw

• I think the section on the Princeton-Harvard game is too long: many of the details do not concern Baker and could be cut.

I think this should be left in as it is the only complete description of a game that Baker took part in, and therefore provides a good explanation of what type of player he was.

More to follow in the next few days, but looking good overall. --Sarastro1 (talk) 22:16, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Post-university

• "The summer after graduation Baker toured Europe as a correspondent for The New York Times.": This begs the question: doing what? Reporting something in particular? Writing? Why?

Clarified

• "Baker used his connections..." Could this be explained more? What was the connection with the insurance firm?

Fixed

• "In order to leave the arena quickly after hockey games, without having to deal with the public, Pyne often loaned Baker his valet." These two facts do not seem related. How did the valet help him leave quickly?

Fixed

• "the constant focus against him on the ice had taken a toll on him": Does this mean opponents targeted him physically, or does it mean he was the centre of attention all the time?

Fixed

World War One

• "He went to the island late in the afternoon after he finished work for the day." Presumably he did this every day; at the moment, it reads as if it was a one-off.

Fixed

• "At the time it was the largest military aircraft formation.": This specific event, or the organisation Baker belonged to?

Clarified

• "Baker was discouraged to be sent to a school in England and then back to France to teach Americans what he had learned": Not quite sure I understand this. Why was he sent to England and then back to France? What was he doing? One reading of this would be that he went to teach Americans French! And where were the Americans he taught? England or France?

Tried to clarify, should be good now

Further explanation: The bulk of the Air Service, AEF trained in England before it went France. 25% of the Air Service AEF was based in England training units for combat by request of the British, who were short on manpower, particularly trained mechanics. More than a thousand American flying cadets were incrementally sent to France after completing ground school (most of them honor graduates) to speed up the training of U.S. pilots, but just the opposite occurred. French promises of training 500 per month were hollow and the incoming cadets piled up in camps. Most were used as laborers while awaiting training, and were known as the "million dollar guard." Some pilots of the small number of squadrons already in France, including Baker's, were sent back to England for specialized training, then returned to France to instruct other Americans in primary schools opened at Tours and Issoudun to reduce the backlog. Baker, I suspect, was one of those selected to be sent to England.--Reedmalloy (talk) 17:23, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

• "Baker was sent away from the front and given charge of the 141st Squadron, composed of 26 pilots and 180 enlisted men stationed behind the front line": I'm assuming their job was refuelling, but you have hidden this in the link.

It was a combat squadron, and later changed to refuelling. I've tried to make clear what his job was.

Further explanation: The 141st AS was a pursuit squadron, first, last and always. It arrived in France in August 1918 without pilots and was one of the last to be sent to the front, and even then was the only pursuit squadron of the four assigned to the incipient Air Service Second Army to have airplanes, which it inherited from another aero squadron at the aerodrome it was sent to. The 141st went to the front October 21st, flew its first patrol on October 23, and was assigned to the new 4th Pursuit Group (which Biddle commanded) on October 25. It remained the only pursuit squadron of the Second Army to see combat, ultimately involved in 13 combats and downing two German aircraft (the first by Baker, the second shared by five pilots including Baker, which in 1918 followed the French practice of crediting each pilot involved with a "kill"). The 141st was disbanded after WWI and its lineage was not linked to the 141st FS (created and assigned to the NJANG after WWII) until 1988 when the two units consolidated, thus did not take on the air refueling mission until 1991 (the first aerial refueling in history did not take place until 1923). --Reedmalloy (talk) 17:22, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Death

• "which was made difficult by the lack of altitude required to glide the plane into the hanger.": Does this mean not much altitude was needed to get into the hanger, or he did not have the required height?

Clarified

• "with a fellow Princeton": Is this right, or is there a word equivalent to "Princetonian"?

Not sure, so just used "fellow Princeton graduate"

General comments:

• Most of the copy-edits were to remove excess words; particularly over-use of "would" and use of contractions.
• What is known of his playing style in the various sports? I think it needs a section to cover this, maybe saying why he was so good. Some detail is given throughout, but it would be useful to have it in one section in summary.

Finding details on this was hard to do, and as much as I agree, it seems that the available content would have not been sufficent for a whoe section.

• Images seem OK, but is there any evidence that they were 'published before 1923? I know several image experts would seize on this at FAC!

They were mostly used in newspapers from the era, so they should be allright.

• Spot checks on references revealed no problems except one minor nit-pick above. Sourcing looks good. Referencing excellent.
• No Dablinks. Fitzpatrick link shows as a redirect.

I checked it out, and its fine.

I'll put this on hold for a week, but I can extend if needed. I don't see too many problems to passing, it's all fairly minor. However, I would suggest if this article is to go for FAC as the talk page suggests, it needs a thorough copy-edit as there are still some prose issues, albeit not enough to stop it passing GA. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:05, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Everything has been addressed. Any other concerns just let me know. Kaiser matias (talk) 02:07, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

All good, passing now. --Sarastro1 (talk) 19:53, 12 May 2011 (UTC)