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Archive 1Archive 2

Urgent issue that must be addressed now

There is something in this article and this talk page itself that suggests that the article is in danger of ending up in a state of disrepair. Of great concern is the fact that the article promotes an 'us and them' attitude between ethnic Vietnamese and other Viet peoples. The article fails to explain that the term 'Hoa' is really just a political label that was used to marginalise certain people. It also fails to explain that there is no real difference between the so-called 'Hoa' and the 'native' Vietnamese.

Also of concern is the propaganda throughout the article. There is an urgent need to check each reference in the article to see if they are suitable. We also need to delete any sentences that cannot be substantiated.

The first step that needs to be taken is to remove all references to 'Overseas Chinese' and 'Chinese' except where they are explicitly referring to the labels that various Vietnamese governments or the local populace have imposed (in which case the wording is altered appropriately). By doing this, a very serious point-of-view problem will be resolved and will also help towards ridding this article of politically motivated propaganda.

Also, note that the 'native' Vietnamese are probably really a collection of ethnic groups (one being the Kinh people) rather than a single monolithic entity. This point may need to be addressed too.

Therefore, I have commenced cleaning up the article as a matter of urgency. If you have any comments or suggestions, I will be more than happy to see it. 122.105.145.169 (talk) 11:46, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Some of the propaganda and other questionable material have now been removed or reworded. In particular, most of the references to 'Chinese' have been eliminated for neutrality's sake and I believe that most, if not all, of the communist propaganda made up by the CCP have been deleted. However, further improvements are required (including the addition of relevant, balanced information that is not already in the article) if the NPOV and factual accuracy tag is to be removed. 122.105.145.169 (talk) 12:21, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Do we really need a section on 'Hoa' concentrations around the world? As far as I am aware, these 'communities' exist in the same locations as 'other' overseas Vietnamese communities. In fact the descendants of 'Hoa' people who have migrated from Vietnam to other countries are rarely distinguishable (probably less than 1 in 100 cases) from descendants of 'other' Vietnamese-born people on the basis of culture, appearance, social class or language. 122.105.146.66 (talk) 05:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I will also move that this article be no longer part of Wikipedia: WikiProject China. It is widely accepted amongst Mainland Chinese, Hong Kongers and even Taiwanese that the Hoa people are not of Chinese ethnicity at all;

This isn't true. I know Hoa, and think of them as ethnic Chinese. The important thing is that *they* think of themselves as ethnic Chinese. You can have multiple ethnicities Roadrunner (talk) 22:40, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Not quite right I am afraid. In Sydney, Australia, most descendants of the 'Hoa' people do not say that they are ethnically Chinese; instead, they say that they are ethnic Vietnamese, Cantonese or Teo Chew in accordance to what they view their ethnic identity to be. Many of these people also observe that there is practically no difference between Cantonese and Vietnamese peoples in a genetic sense and that the Cantonese and Vietnamese languages are very similar. 122.105.145.151 (talk) 00:29, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Mang. This is upsetting. I'm Hoa. My mom's Hoa. My dad's Hoa. We consider ourselves Chinese. Heck we consider those in you speak of in Australia to be Chinese. You say we might be slightly different from the Han Chinese, but we still speak a Chinese dialect, and that's enough for the Chinese public to proclaim that we're Chinese. Remember the Chinese language may have different dialects, but they have a writing system that's nearly universal in the country. Cantonese and Vietnamese languages are very, VERY, different I'm sorry. My mom knows both and it's not like they're Spanish to Portuguese. Beyond the similar vocabulary and phonetics, because of the geographic-linguistic border, they are two different languages. Cantonese and Vietnamese similar genetically, but culturally different. --Losershoes (talk) 07:53, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Well then, Sydney, Australia is very different from Austin, Texas. If you can find something citable then it can be posted. Do these people that you speak of have a website where they state their views on ethnicity? If so, it would make a wonderful addition to the article. Can you find academic articles or newspaper reports on how Hoa in Sydney, Australia see themselves? If all else fails, can you get a few people fron Syndey, Australia to agree that this is what they actually see. Roadrunner (talk) 15:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

These people consider the Hoa a subset of the Vietnamese ethnicity. I believe that the said WikiProject designation just highlights a case of double standards: on the one hand, the populaces of China, Hong Kong and Taiwan regard the Hoa as ethnically Vietnamese and not Chinese; but on the other hand, some propagandists from the same countries continually exploit (for their own interests) the prolonged discrimination against Hoa people at the hands of some Vietnamese, convinced that they can label people whatever they want. 122.105.146.66 (talk) 05:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I have just requested that this article be no longer part of Wikipedia: WikiProject China at the appropriate WikiProject talk page. If approval is sought, I will remove that deplorable template that has promoted nothing but an 'us and them' attitude. 122.105.146.66 (talk) 06:07, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Since there has been no response at all regarding the disputed template at the appropriate WikiProject talk page, the template has now been removed. 122.105.144.54 (talk) 10:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Roadrunner. Suggesting something then assuming a consensus in 4 hours and nominating the whole article for deletion are nothing but biased POV. Vietnam and China consider them ethnic Chinese. Those people consider themselves ethnic Chinese. The so-called dispute has no ground under WP:NPOV. (FYI, some can consider northern Chinese less Chinese than the southern Chinese. Southern Chinese dialects resemble ancient Chinese much better than northern dialects. It's very silly to consider Cantonese or Fujianese "not Han Chinese" (as compared to the Li in Hainan, the Yao or Zhuang in Guangxi, etc.) HkCaGu (talk) 17:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Also there may be groups of Chinese that don't think of Hoa as Chinese, and if someone can find a verifiable source for this, it should be added. However, the notion that the original poster had that *in general* Chinese don't think of Hoa as ethnically Chinese is pretty clearly false. I'd actually be interested if the original poster can find *any* ethnic Chinese that doesn't consider Hoa to be ethnic Chinese.
Also the fact that Hoa are also thought of ethnically Vietnamese means nothing to whether or not they are thought of as ethnically Chinese. People can have multiple ethnicities. Also the intersection between politics and ethnicity is interesting since all of the Sino-Vietnamese I know (in the Central Texas area) are *politically* very Vietnamese and don't any particularly loyalty or sympathy to either the PRC or ROC (which is different from some of the Malaysian or Indonesian Chinese that I know). They however, also tend to dislike the Hanoi government, and most of them fly the South Vietnamese flag, and are active in Vietnamese exile groups in the United States. Roadrunner (talk) 23:49, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Can we at least say that the Hoa people are considered ethnically Vietnamese? After all, this is what the article originally said.
If you can find a citable source that says that are, then sure. If you can't, then no. Roadrunner (talk) 14:56, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
By the way, I don't believe that most Hoa, like other overseas Vietnamese, continue to fly the South Vietnamese flag overseas. I do agree with the statement about the political activism though.

122.105.145.151 (talk) 00:29, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm curious exactly who you are and what your background is, since you don't seem to have much exposure to overseas Chinese communities or overseas Vietnamese communities yet you insist on posting what you think their views are. If you go to places in Texas and California where there are large concentrations of overseas Vietnamese, you see the flag of the Republic of Vietnam all over the place. Roadrunner (talk) 14:56, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm speaking from a personal experience. My grandfather migrated to South Vietnam in the early 1900's from Canton, China. I was born and raised in Vietnam. There is a big different between the Hoa and the native Vietnamese. We were never considered as a part of Vietnam. We couldn't own property. We were never Vietnamese citizens. We don't consider ourselves as Vietnamese. Although we consider ourselves as Chinese, we are not considered as such by the Chinese from China, Taiwan or Hong Kong. To them we are considered as "Hoa Kieu".

Who ever said that "..the Cantonese and Vietnamese languages are very similar.." does not speak the languages. I speak both and I can assure you that there's no similarity. Sc29492 (talk) 19:07, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Move to Hoa people

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: CSD'd (non-admin closure). Marcus Qwertyus 05:03, 27 July 2011 (UTC)


Hoa people (Vietnam) → Hoa people – — Preceding unsigned comment added by 虞海 (talk • contribs) 9:40, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Hoa and Jing (Gin) people

  • Hoa = Chinese Vietnamese (Chinese heritage, Vietnamese citizen)
  • Jing (Gin) people = Vietnamese Chinese (Vietnamese heritage, Chinese citizen)


However the Hoa's are genetically more Gin than Han Chinese. The Vietnamese classify them as Chinese simply because they claim at some point in their genetic history, there was a Chinese ancestor. The Hoa look like other Vietnamese, and not at all like a Han Chinese.

Hold on there buddy. My family claims itself as being Hoa, and me myself and my entire family, plus other Hoa do not look like Vietnamese. Hopefully that doesn't sound as racist as it does, but for all the Hoa I know, they do not look Vietnamese. I'll upload a picture of myself to prove it. Hoa are Han Chinese, end of story. Some of the Hoa did intermarry with the Vietnamese, however for most of the Hoa that I know, most of them stuck to marrying other Hoa. My parents who were both Hoa went to a Hoa-only school were they learned about Chinese-communist principles when growing up. Not many other North Vietnamese can attest to that.--Losershoes (talk) 06:22, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

The Jing's in China are also genetically Vietnamese. They have not intermarried Hans, and their physical appearance is still Vietnamese.

Of course The Jing's in China are vietnamese. What are you trying to prove ?? Thousands of Chinese come to Vietnam just for getting married with the local woman and talk out loud how nice vietnamese girls are . The Hoa in Vietnam always refuse to intermarry with the local here for centuries.Still , they cannot be distinguished with the local vietnamese. Why?? Check the mtDNA and Y-DNA to see that Vietnamese people are more northen mongoloid than CHinese. Hiraki (talk) 04:47, 03 January 2013 (UTC)

Hoa anymore???

I noted that the term Hoa applies to ethnic Chinese living in Vietnam. Yes, many ethnic Chinese do not have direct origins with china and have roots directly from Vietnam instead. Once they are out of Vietnam, I dont think they are ethnic Chinese of Vietnam anymore. As one can see, a person's race cannot be changed. Once the Hoa emigrated to other countries, they are considered ethnically Chinese (American), with origins from Vietnam. At most this makes them ethnically Chinese (American) and by national origin Vietnamese (American). Thus once these chinese emigrates to other countries they are no longer Hoa, unless the term Hoa is a totally separate ethnic group from the Chinese/Vietnamese.

It's actually quite possible to change someone's race. Where I live, one second, I'm white, the next second I'm Asian, the next second I'm Chinese, the next second I'm Han. My DNA doesn't change, but how people look at me does. Race and ethnicity are social categories, not biological ones. I have noticed that Vietnamese Chinese, Indonesian Chinese, and Malayasian Chinese who emmigrate to the United States or Canada, still form distinct social groups. As an encyclopedia, it is important to describe, so the best thing to do is to find a Hoa who immigrated to somewhere else, and ask them how they see themselves. Roadrunner (talk) 23:37, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Thus I made the necessary amendments. If you have any objections, feel free to raise them here, but I would appreciate at least a notification from my talk page. Thanks.Mr Tan 15:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Chinese people in Le Vietnam

Some Chinese stayed in Vietnam after Le Loi's revolt and even formed a unit in the Le Dai Viet army.

http://books.google.com/books?id=bYUncAAACAAJ&dq=china+factor+southeast+asia+fifteenth&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ido3U6rVHKa-sQTM_IH4Dw&ved=0CDQQ6wEwAA

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/248395427_The_Ming_factor_and_the_Emergence_of_the_Viet_in_the_15th_century

Pages 83-103

Page 95-96

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Tana_Li/publication/248395427_The_Ming_factor_and_the_Emergence_of_the_Viet_in_the_15th_century/file/60b7d51df84438389a.pdf

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Rajmaan (talk • contribs) 08:59, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Majority of boat people Hoa?

I raised my eyebrows when I read that ~85% of the Vietnamese boat people actually were ethnic Chinese. I need FULL refernce on that claim, as I believe the number to be ridiculously high. My parents were boat people themselves and they believe the number to be far far off the mark. Most boat people were ethnic Vietnamese. I believe most Vietnamese that actually were boat people can confirm that fact. I am removing the statement until I see a full reference, (a longer text with the numbers in context, posted on this Talk page.) I've also got to say that I'm sorry the Vietnamese government treated the Chinese in Vietnam badly, but there is no need to play down the suffering experienced by ethnic Vietnamese. The claim that Chinese make up the majority of the boat people from Vietnam is nothing short of historical revisionism.

It is also pointed out below, that the article contains mainly citations from a Chinese Communist paper in 1982, right after the Sino-Viet war, and is highly propagandist. The number of Hoa people that left the country could hardly be millions. The total number of ethnic Vietnamese that left Vietnam after the war was around two million...Tridungvo 22:48, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


The Boat People were ethnically Vietnamese. They are classified as Hoa because they may have a grandfather or great-grandfather who was Chinese, even although all the other grandparents or great-grandparents were Vietnamese.

- (Just passing by ...) I found there is a reference in "Vietnam, past and present" by D.R. SarDesai that indicates that "Of all refugees and boat people, 80 percent were of Chinese origin." This was found through a google search. http://books.google.com/books?id=kuV2267_KDUC&pg=PA168&lpg=PA168&dq=hoa+people&source=bl&ots=oEj7mtP5Rq&sig=Xo5qVrLuP-RmWd5f-6c2z-maIzs&hl=en&ei=LFFeSqW3B5OxlAeZy4XmDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10

The above source is not refugees from vietnam to u.s. but refugees from vietnam to china after the viet-china war in 1979.Sea888 (talk) 16:59, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


Most Vietnamese boat people were not ethnic Chinese (Hoa) at all. In the first wave in 1975, they made up 14 percent of the refugees. Most Hoa left in the late 70s and early 80s. In 2013 the Hoa made up around 11.5 percent of the Vietnamese American population of over 1.7 million.

Source: Trieu, M.M. (2013). Chinese-Vietnamese Americans. In X. Zhao, & E.J. Park (Eds.), Asian Americans: An Encyclopedia of Social, Cultural, Economic, and Political History (pp. 305-310). Santa Barbara, USA: Greenwood. 80.213.217.85 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 15:26, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

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refs

The refs are a bit of a mess here, I'm not sure how to sort them all out. JMWt (talk) 16:05, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. The "Issues" section is completely unsourced — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.240.220.195 (talk) 15:22, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

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Hoa and Kinh

Some of this wiki is wrong. Read below for difference between Hoa and Kinh.

http://eastasiaorigin.blogspot.com/2018/05/ethnic-origin-of-kinh-in-vietnam.html

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:9800:B900:5CEC:4C12:66B7:FDB1:B738 (talk) 01:13, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Neutrality

The articles contains mainly citations from a Chinese paper published in 1982, right after the Sino-Vietnam War. It is highly propagandist. Add up the number of how many Hoa people left the country, you end up in millions... LOL — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.189.135.223 (talk) 12:57, 23 December 2006 (UTC)‎


Where did they get the statistics from?

They got the statistics from the communists. Americans are ignorant about Vietnam, and its history and culture. That's why they lost the war. All the information about Vietnam they have is from the books the vietnamese communists or other Vietnamese wrote.

I'm Vietnamese myself, and I lived in Saigon at the time. Let me tell you, Hoa people were often bullied by Vietnamese at the time. Only rich Hoa people could get away with the bullying by briding South Vietnamese Government officials for protection.

Most Hoa people of the South live in District 5 (Chinatown) of Ho Chi Minh/Saigon city but still they only accounted/account for 50% of the population of the district. Hoa people there are known as Tau Cholon. Cholon means "Big Market", and Tau means "Chinese". Tau Cholon implies the Hoa people living in District 5 where Big Market is.

South Vietnam is big. It's hundreds of times larger than District 5 of Ho Chi Minh/Saigon city. Before 1975, Hoa people only accounted for 1% of the whole population of South Vietnam. So how could 1% of the whole population possibly control 80% of South Vietnam's foods...? It just doesn't make sense at all. You can say that they controlled 80% of their Chinatown's economy but not the entire South Vietnam's economy. The ones that really controlled a big percentage of South Vietnam's economy were the Vietnamese goverment officials.


P.S: Note that the statistics was released by the Viet Cong. If they hadn't released it there's no way LOC could have gotten it and misinterpreted it.

Saigon-Cholon was the former name for Saigon City/Ho Cho Minh City. LOC thought that Saigon-Cholon was the district that most ethnic Chinese live in so they misinterpreted the whole thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mneyman2k (talk • contribs) 22:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


To be fair Nguoi Tau literally means "Boat People" but shouldn't Viet Nam Hoa kieu be a translation as well? ~ Epod. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.146.167.240 (talk) 08:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

--- Um, a technical thing= Chinese in South Vn did not make up "1 percent" of the South Vietnamese population before 75 but about 5 percent. More than 60 percent of the currently 85 million people in Vietnam right now were born after 75. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.10.90.116 (talk) 01:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Large removals

In response to this edit, most of the removed content was well sourced and a lot of it was neutrally written about the economic influence of the "Hoa" people, I am not opposed to splitting this article into a "History of Chinese people in Vietnam" or "History of Hoa people", but the content itself didn't seem to "glorify" the Hoa. --Donald Trung (talk) 15:58, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Most of the content was a repeat of what was already written. Also, in my opinion, it sounds like a glorification of Hoa people and their apparent business acumen. This is flawed in several ways. The Chinese actively participated in Opium trade during French colonial rule. That's not necessarily business acumen, that's just illegal tactics that was rightfully punished by the government. So the sources are unreliable, since they try to paint a picture-perfect image of the Hoa people who were apparently great at business - but if they're so great at business, why aren't they top 10 of the richest Vietnamese people in Vietnam? Somthing wrong is going on and it's better to just delete material that sounds too suspicious or untrue, from the point of view that I hold when I read it that is. 220.245.23.222 (talk) 06:39, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
But Yes, I agree that there might need to be a split between Hoa people, who are Chinese people from Southern regions of China coming to Vietnam around the 18th century, and say, the Vietnamese dynasties that were started by people of Chinese descent who would have used some form Old or Middle Chinese dialect. The second half however sounds like garbage to me unfortunately 220.245.23.222 (talk) 06:43, 24 October 2021 (UTC)
@220.245.23.222:, Excuse the late reply as I didn't have as much time for Wikipedia as I had hoped. Anyhow, "Also, in my opinion, it sounds like a glorification of Hoa people and their apparent business acumen." well, I agree that a lot of it exaggerated their business acumen but a lot of what you removed could have simply been re-worded as most of it was properly sourced and I think that removing bias is better for the article than removing content altogether, now the article is missing quite some information about the topics you removed. "since they try to paint a picture-perfect image of the Hoa people who were apparently great at business - but if they're so great at business, why aren't they top 10 of the richest Vietnamese people in Vietnam?" while I agree with these points the point you make is somewhat original research and cannot be used to dismiss the sources, even if the sources are biased you can simply change the interpretation to be of a more neutral tone and while "Hoa" people aren't as prominent in Vietnamese businesses today Thanh nhân (the correct term for pre-1945 Non-Kinh Chinese peoples in Vietnam, as Minh nhân and earlier immigrants were considered to be a part of the dominant ethnic group) were highly influential. The sources and sections you removed simply cited the relative overrepresentation of the "Hoa" people in certain fields. Regarding "The Chinese actively participated in Opium trade during French colonial rule. That's not necessarily business acumen, that's just illegal tactics that was rightfully punished by the government." yeah, you are right, then find a source that discusses these things and insert it into the article.
A number of information about the business activities of the "Chinese" you removed are purely statistics, which even if the sources can be considered "bad" for glorifying "Hoa" people don't become less accurate as the content was presented in a neutral way simply stating what percentage of businesses in Ho Chi Minh City was "Chinese"-owned or their percentages during the South Vietnamese period, it did not state that these businesses were somehow better or more successful, simply their market penetration. You also removed some information which stated that the French gave these Thanh merchants basically exclusive rights over a number of fields which isn't glorification but an example of how the French used their position in Further India to exploit the system and give unfair advantages of the Thanh over the Annamites. Encyclopædia Britannica isn't an unreliable source and the annotation where an editor expressed their doubts reading "I doubt the statement of being more successful then Kinh is true. None of the richest Vietnamese billionaires are of Hoa descent. They're all Kinh people. Furthermore Kinh people or Vietnamese people in general, Cham or whatnot, still hold the most political and economic clout of all.", well, the preceding sentence simply states that "Chinese" people historically owned a lot of economic sectors which further in these sections is explained to have been acquired through less than moral methods. I don't see how the removed sentences "glorify" the "Chinese" at all. --Donald Trung (talk) 12:06, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Modern chinese sources

Are these even legit? Or have they been revised for political purposes? The author of these modern chinese sources seems to display his chinese chauvism, as if they are superior. And I agree with the glorification of the chinese part, most of these sections that talk about how great they are have been written in the modern times, not historical. If true, then the chinese author is attempting to rewrite history and put on a false sense of chinese supremacy. They also seem to have an obsession with cuckholding and taking the women of every country they are in - not just Vietnam but every article relating to their diaspora. Why is this the case for every modern chinese author and their works - when it was the other way around citing historicial references and occurances? Norewritingofhistory (talk) 01:51, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

@Norewritingofhistory:, which sources and sourced paragraphs are you talking about? Because while I agree with you that this article can have a more neutral tone, I don't know which specific issues you are currently referring to. --Donald Trung (talk) 18:13, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
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