Talk:History of the Marranos in England

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Marrano

I think it is important to remark that "marranos" is a spanish word that means "pigs"

Change title

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:38, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

History of the Marranos in England → History of the Anusim in England —

The title currently contains a derogatory term for Spanish Jews who converted to Christianity after the Alhambra Decree. I'm not sure what would be the best title, but "Anusim" is the Jewish designations for forced converts to Christianity and does not have the dehumanizing connotations that "Marrano" does. Mijopaalmc (talk) 00:39, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment is this article about "Marranos" or is it about any Jews that were forcefully converted, regardless of whether they were Iberian or not? 64.229.101.183 (talk) 03:53, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment As near as I can figure out, the article is about Sephardic Jews who came to England after the expulsion of the Jews from the Iberian Peninsula and the end of the 15th century. The only individual specifically discussed in the article is technically not a "marrano" as he was born in Portugal (which technically make him a "marrão"). Regardless of whether "marrano" or "marrão" is the correct term, I question the use of either one in the title of the article because both are somewhat derogatory. Mijopaalmc (talk) 04:20, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - Comment WP:NOTCENSORED would seem to apply. 64.229.101.183 (talk) 13:24, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - Oppose since this would change the scope of the article, and no reasoning for changing the scope of the article has been provided. The suggested new title is too generic for the current topic covered. 64.229.101.183 (talk) 13:24, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Derogatory or not, "Marranos" is the name that history commonly uses for these people and is the title of our article on them. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:00, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. We should use terms which the average/common reader knows and understands. Marrano may have had a somewhat derogatory meaning but today it is the common name for the 'new Christians/former Jews' during 15th century Spain. Anusim (which I honestly never saw before) is simply largely unknown. I also want to point out that the term Marrano specifically means new Christians/former Jews during 15th century Spain while Anusim has a whole different meaning (all 'new Christians/former Jews' regardless of geographical and historical background). Flamarande (talk) 11:12, 15 February 2011 (UTC) This article 'History of the Marranos in England' is not the proper place for this debate (it should be in Talk:Marranos).[reply]
Oppose As a (fairly secular) English Jew, I am much more familar with the term "Marranos" as designating a specific group. Although it originated as a derogatory term, it is much more widely used today and an important aspect of Jewish history. The Celestial City (talk)
Comment Even though I originally started the renaming request because I questioned the use of "marrano" as a neutral term from the people described in the article and I am still not convinced that it is neutral, the current titling of ithe article is incorrect. The Marrano article is quite clear that "marrano" describes a crypto-Jew from the Kingdoms of Castille and Aragon. However, the only individual mentioned in the article is from Portugal and therefore not a "marrano". It seem that, if one of the more important crypto-Jewish figures in England was not a "marrano", calling the article "The History of Marranos in England" is at best inaccurate. Mijopaalmc (talk) 20:27, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You have to realize that several kings of Spain where also kings of Portugal (read: Iberian Union). It's likely that Portuguese Jews simply decided to emigrate to England as life became harder, making it possible that the term Marrano also aplied to the Portuguese Jews. Either way you can place a proper tag requiring assistance for the article. Flamarande (talk) 20:38, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]