Talk:Jews in baseball

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Jews in baseball article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Jews in baseball has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: September 14, 2024. (Reviewed version).

Baseball Low‑importance

	Baseball portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Baseball, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of baseball on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BaseballWikipedia:WikiProject BaseballTemplate:WikiProject BaseballBaseball articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Jewish history Low‑importance

	Judaism portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Organized Labour Low‑importance

	Organized Labour portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Organized Labour, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Organized Labour on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Organized LabourWikipedia:WikiProject Organized LabourTemplate:WikiProject Organized Labourorganized labour articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Should this article be renamed?

A more accurate name appears to be "Jewish contributions to baseball" given section 1 is "Contributions" and takes up most of the article, section 2 is "Outside the United States" (implied contributions Outside the US), and the final section is a small section called "In media culture", which still mainly discusses contributions, mainly against antisemitism and towards team culture. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:52, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No because its modeled after similarly named articles such as Jews in the civil rights movement and Jews in association football, and was moved after a discussion about the latter. Also, I've edited out the contributions the GA review suggested so and I agreed with that since this is more than just contributions but also about their history and involvement in the sport. Omnis Scientia (talk) 22:46, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Jews in baseball/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Omnis Scientia (talk · contribs) 17:07, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Shushugah (talk · contribs) 21:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Initial

I am looking forward to reviewing your article. My knowledge of baseball is limited compared to my interest in WP:WikiProject Jewish history and WP:WikiProject Organized Labour so I immensely enjoyed reading this article. I will leave this review open for 2 weeks and request your confirmation that you're available to work on it. In certain cases I am willing to extend the review period as long as communication is flowing. Please ping me {{u|Shushugah}} when you've made progress. The article is incredibly comprehensive, neutrally written and very interesting! My nitpicks below are easily fixed. I specify where it's merely a friendly suggestion and where it's mandatory per the WP:GAN criteria. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 21:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Shushugah, hey there! Thanks for taking this up and I'm glad you enjoyed the article :) ! So I've added ticks where I've done what you've asked and added notes if needed. Looking forward to hearing back from you! Omnis Scientia (talk) 22:12, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Shushugah, just a reminder ping. Omnis Scientia (talk) 13:58, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Shushugah, I hope all is well. Its been a couple of days. Would like a further review. Thanks (and sorry if I sound pushy!

). Omnis Scientia (talk) 20:44, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Shushugah, okay, I've done the references as you've asked and also double-checked them. Omnis Scientia (talk) 14:12, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Omnis Scientia Congratulations on your second Good Article! The issues are resolved. I did one last spot check and confirmed the claims about first collective labor agreement in the MLBPA.^[1] You can add the date it was updated, which is September 8, 2002 (based on HTML comment Generated on 09/08/2002 at 07:29:57 PM - by Columnist.tea ). ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 02:38, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Shushugah, thank you so much! :) Have a good day! Best regards, Omnis Scientia (talk) 07:26, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sourcing review

Hey Omnis Scientia I hope you're doing well! I try read carefully through the sourcing, which takes time. Several claims are not substantiated by the sources they're linked to or missing important context. See some of the examples below. Could you also do a more thorough source verification, and see if there are any other issues?

Half done The 4 claims attributed to Vox are accurate....however^[2] neglecting to mention that Hank Green DID play on Rosh Hashanah and more critically, that it wasn't a tight game according to article. Verifying further at 1935 World Series Tigers won 3 games / lost 1 game just before Yom Kippur started with 2 more games left. Y
- N NYTimes Source^[3] but doesn't say anything about Hank's game in detroit, besides a small line that like Koufax he didn't play on Yom Kippur. Would look for other facts here, but otherwise use above reference. It does include interesting tidbits about kind of antisemitism he experienced and also differences between 1930s and 1960s with regards to Jewish assimilation/stakes. Y -- Comment: I've added more context and detail to both.
Done both sources here about reserve clause case and origins of Major League Baseball Players Association are verified ^[4]^[5]
N I was checking how weighted/notable some of the names were. I found Al Rosen and Moe Berg but could not find any mention of Kevin Youkilis or Ryan Braun in this reference.^[6] Y

Image review

Done All 5 images used are permissibly licensed (Public Domain) and captioned appropriately. Not required for GA criteria (it should be imo) none of the images have alternative text for images which means visually impaired readers would miss out. Y

File:Young Judean Baseball Team (26445507635).jpg might be an interesting photo with the Star of David on the baseball uniforms, however it's clearly a smaller team. Y Comment: Great picture! Works in "Outside the United States" section.

Layout/outline

Not done Wikipedia:Further reading section should be above WP:REFERENCES section Comment: Will do so but I've always seen it below references. Y
I personally would remove Contributions 2nd level section its subsections to be their own sections. Y
Rename Owners and executives to Management Y
Rename Players' Union to Labor union or Baseball union(the current name sounds like a proper noun which it isn't) Y Comment: Changed to "Labor movement". Thought it sounded better.

Nitpicks

before the two leagues combined -> before the two leagues merged into Major League Baseball Y
Wiki link Stereotypes of Jews at Jews as non-athletic and bookish Y
professional baseball since the beginning -> (when?) it is hinted later down with Lipman Pike who played in the 19th century Y
labour -> labor (use American english spelling) Y
home runs (wiki link) Y
important towards free agency -> advancing cause of free agency Y Note: wrote in my own words; there was a missing word there.
ballclubs Y
Not mandatory, but consider filling in author-link in the citations, where possible e.g Jon Wertheim Y
I will do a reference check soon

References

^ "ESPN.com: MLB - A contentious history: Baseball's labor fights". www.espn.com. Retrieved 2024-09-14.
^ Lind, Dara (2014-10-02). "The secret history of Jews in baseball". Vox. Retrieved 2024-09-11.
^ Beschloss, Michael (July 26, 2014). "Hank Greenberg's Triumph Over Hate Speech". The New York Times. Archived from the original on May 6, 2024. Retrieved May 6, 2024.
^ "How Marvin Miller Led Players Union and Changed Baseball Forever". The Forward. 2015-02-25. Retrieved 2024-09-11.
^ Frommer, Frederic J. (2022-07-11). "When almost nobody else would, Hank Greenberg backed a Black player fighting for free agency". The Forward. Retrieved 2024-09-11.
^ Anderson, John (2010-11-01). "Jews and Baseball: An American Love Story". Variety. Retrieved 2024-09-11.

This article should be renamed

"Jews in baseball" sounds contentious. Americanfreedom (talk) 15:11, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What about "Jewish baseball players"? Or is it that some are not players but managers etc. "Jewish people" might be a bit better than just "Jews." It's kind of a connotation though not technically wrong... Andre🚐 22:29, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jews and baseball, Jewish contributions to baseball (wow that's long) are some alternatives I can think of. Jews and Baseball: An American Love Story is an existing wiki link/film title which shows it's prevalent enough. Jews in X seems to be common for geography articles which makes sense. I'm neutral here, but would lean towards Jews and baseball if alternative was desired and oppose "Jewish XXXX since this is really not a list the way Jewish baseball players already is (albeit redirects to List of Jews in sports" ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 23:10, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] "ESPN.com: MLB - A contentious history: Baseball's labor fights". www.espn.com. Retrieved 2024-09-14.

[2] Lind, Dara (2014-10-02). "The secret history of Jews in baseball". Vox. Retrieved 2024-09-11.

[3] Beschloss, Michael (July 26, 2014). "Hank Greenberg's Triumph Over Hate Speech". The New York Times. Archived from the original on May 6, 2024. Retrieved May 6, 2024.

[4] "How Marvin Miller Led Players Union and Changed Baseball Forever". The Forward. 2015-02-25. Retrieved 2024-09-11.

[5] Frommer, Frederic J. (2022-07-11). "When almost nobody else would, Hank Greenberg backed a Black player fighting for free agency". The Forward. Retrieved 2024-09-11.

[6] Anderson, John (2010-11-01). "Jews and Baseball: An American Love Story". Variety. Retrieved 2024-09-11.

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

[5]

[6]