Talk:History of the Jews in Morocco

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Untitled

I am changing "Jewesses" to "Jewish women" and "Jewesses were outraged" to "Jewish women were raped." (I think that's what "Jewesses were outraged" means).75.84.97.215 02:49, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Why did you make such an assumption? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tashfine (talk • contribs) 18:50, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

"Outraged" is a common archaic term for rape. It could also be used to refer to other horrors, depending upon the context.

"As recently as the mid-20th century, Americans used 'outrage' very differently: It referred to things like floggings, torture, rape, mutilation, arson and lynching. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, an outrage was 'an act of violence, esp. one committed against a person or against society; a violent injury or wrong.' It derived from the Medieval French ultrage and then outrage — an insult or excess — and is related to the Latin ultragium ('a going beyond'). In other words, an outrage was not an expression of one’s anger at something considered offensive. It was an offense so violent and unseemly that it threatened the foundation of society itself.

"In an 1870 Times article, for instance — 'The Outrage at the City Hall' — 'outrage' clearly means rape: 'After locking the door, he made an improper proposal, which she rejected. He then threw her down and outraged her, threatening to smother her if she made any noise.'"

In the context above -- women being "outraged," in particular -- it meant rape. Oakling (talk) 17:09, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Deletion of factual material / geographic location of Morocco

Why has the category, Jews of West Africa, deleted? Is not Morocco part of West Africa? This seems cut and dry NPOV. Dogru144 18:08, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Berber jewess

Last edits by 84.109.96.88 look a bit POV and w/o any source. The use of the term heroic is certainly a POV one. The other thing is that the additions lack any reference or sources like "the adopted arab son who btrayed her..." I'll fix that and wait for any sources to revert it back as per 84.109.96.88 edits -- Svest 21:17, 25 October 2005 (UTC) ^{Wiki me up ®}

There seems to be confusion on how she died. This page [1] (google translation [2]) in French says she was decapitated. This page [3] in Spanish says she died next to a well. This article [4] says she committed suicide by throwing herself into a well. The jewish encyclopedia says she fell near a well [5] indicating she was murdered quite possibly by decapitation. Arniep 22:37, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

This is what I meant Arniep. As long as there are many versions, than we should include them all (with sources) and not base only on one version. If you see, the whole article is a mirror of the Jewish Encyclopedia on the topic. Many things should be reviewed in the article. Hope I had time for that. Cheers -- Svest 19:20, 26 October 2005 (UTC) ^{Wiki me up ®}

help needed

Has anyone information, why the jewish population between 1948 and today has shrunk to less than 0,5% what it was beforehand? (a little over a thousand jews remain in Marroko in 2023) That is a very steep decline and the people who moved out of Marroka a very likely still alive, so I hope for some of them having said something about this or can write something about this here? I find this a relevant topic, since some pro Israel commentators have brought up the steep decline of the jewish population in muslim/arab countries in the last 70+ years, but I wasn't able to find out, why that minority vanished in those countries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16B8:D65:B600:945B:4D0F:B621:BE99 (talk) 14:49, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

You're right; the article doesn't seem to show much reason for that. Most of the Wikipedia articles on the subject, like History of the Jews in Iraq or History of the Jews in Syria, show a lot of violence and institutionalized oppression of Jews during that time. I'll look into it and see what's missing here. Oakling (talk) 17:17, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Very biased article

I thank you for the article, but I think it is very biased and even might be ideologically-motivated.

If the Jews of Morocco were so badly treated in the whole moroccan history, how come they lived there until the mid 20th century ??

Also saying that Moroccan citizens of jewish obedience are badly treated now in Morocco is very biased. There are some racists like everywhere but they are highly respected by the majority.

The article cited André Azoulay but forgot to tell about Abraham Serfaty and his role in fighting for a democratic Morocco.

Please feel free to improve the article, especially if you provide sources, since it sounds like you have a lot to add. As a note, much of this article was taken from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, which I don't think is particularly ideologically motivated, as it predated Israel by a half century, but obviously the modern info is from other sources. You may also want to sign your comments with ~~~~ --Goodoldpolonius2 18:25, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I have a feeling that, as this article was lifted from the Jewish Encyclopedia, when it said Jews were "now" badly treated this meant 1901. At present I think that it (and Tunisia) are about the most user-friendly Arab countries for Jews to live in; and the section on current history is quite consistent with this.

The article mentions the arrival of Spanish exiles after 1492, but says nothing about the continued existence of the "Guerush Castilia", meaning the Spanish-speaking communities of Tangier, Tetuan etc. that remained quite separate from Arabic-speaking Moroccan Jewry in many ways. There should also be some mention of current Moroccan Jewish communities round the world.--Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 14:44, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Much of the article has good information but rather poorly and POV phrased, e.g with respect to Ministers - queer off-handed dismissal of the importance of Jewish ministers as merely there to extort money and subject to dismissal at the Sultan's whim. Of course that's true - true of any minister of the period, regardless of the said minister's religion. collounsbury 22:21, 17 February 2007 (UTC).

I agree. I'll try to do my best once i'd have enough time. I've just found very interesting information about Jewish art in Morocco which is also missing. -- Szvest 14:24, 13 October 2006 (UTC) ^{Wiki me up ®}

The title should be changed to “the suffering of Jews in Morocco” because you only provide stories about any kind of suffering. Moreover, I’m pretty sceptical about the source of information you’re using. Overall, very biased article.

Jews & Moors

I think there should be some refernce material to the Jewish peoples during Moorish rule. It seems a bit unrealistic that the Jewish people were treated severely. Espicially when there is historic evidence showing the opposite. I think there should e additional evidence showing the positive as well as the negative.--Gnosis 02:40, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Some one wrote "the intolerent almohads". This is not objective. Even if they are vey hostile to the jews, they cannot be named like as that. They would be called "anti-jews". Because the almohads were very open-minded to give fruits like as averroes. I would also like to add that that i'm tired of reading articles where there has been complained about the anti-judaism; Were is the pro-judaism? Where are the reason of that result [Collaboration with the enemies and their orientation to Israel while living in another country, i suppose]? The article is also not well structured, i find Read3r 13:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Citiation problems?

Please forgive my ignorance if that is the source of my confusion, but it seems to me that many of the citations given in this article are not complete, let alone verifiable. For example, consider citation number 4:

Marcus Fischer, l.c. pp. 32 et seq.

What, exactly, is l.c.? Again, it's been a while since I've had to include a formal citation, but it seems to me that this example (and many if not most others in this artical) lacks critical information to qualify as verifiable. Unsigned comment by User:67.155.210.46

The article needs a major rewrite. It was a 100% copy and paste of this article in the Jewish encyclopedia. It is somehow 90% now!

Good question. I think of 2 things. It may mean Library of Congress or something related to Library of Congress Classification. According to Jean Gray Hargrove LC Classification was originally designed to sort books at the Library of Congress and developed specifically with reference to the published literature in each subject area in that collection. Today it is used widely to organize collections in American academic and research libraries. I also think of "letter cover"!!! Cheers -- Szvest 20:06, 14 July 2006 (UTC) ^{Wiki me up™}

"l.c." is short for "loc. cit." or "loco citato". It means "the same passage as the previous citation". (Compare "op. cit.", meaning "the same book as the previous citation".) It has nothing to do with "Library of Congress". --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 09:23, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Sir Myles! I thought "idem/ibidem/id." was used for that purpose instead. -- Szvest 14:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The difference is that "ibid" occurs on its own (in other words it refers to exactly the same passage) while "loc. cit." is followed by a page or paragraph number, and refers to another identified place within the same overall passage. Hope this helps. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 22:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Sephardim and Mizrahim

Hello, I have read claims that in Morocco, antisemitic riots in the late fourties and fifties targeted mainly Sephardim, while the overall attitude towards Mizrahim remained comparatively relaxed. Is that a hoax or is there any serious reality behind this story? (I would be thankful about a mail, as I don't regularly check my wikipedia account). Thank you.Jakob Stevo 03:23, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Language spoken

Maybe a reference should be made to Haketiya. This Spanish-based dialect was spoken in Tangiers and Tetouan. Not to be confused with Ladino, another Spanish-based dialect, but spoken by Jews living in Turkey, Bulgaria and Greece. Judeo-Spanish is a term that encompasses both dialects, but they're actually quite different, although almost wholly intercomprehensible with each other and, to a somewhat lesser degree (but not much lesser) with Standard Spanish. --Abenyosef 21:46, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Jewish neighborhoods

What were they named again? I don't know if it's mentioned in the article. I can't believe I forgot the name and I was living next to one. Jews here were ran out from Chefchaouen. It's late so I don't have no one to ask -.- Sabertooth 03:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh yea! A Mellah. Sabertooth 03:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

List of Moroccan Jewish names

Do we need this list of surnames on this article? It seems off-topic, and there is already a link to the list of Jews from Morocco. nadav 12:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Entire source for WW2 history of Jews in Morocco boils down to one fanciful Haaretz article.

This is poor, shoddy scholarship, in line with the wild speculation and generalizations that are made in many Wikipedia articles. Haaretz articles and editorials simply cannot be used as primary sources for complex historical events that require professional historical research. This is a mistake that Wikipedia articles relating to Jews and Israel make time and time and time again, and show no signs of improvement. What exactly transpired in World War 2 between King Mohammed V and the Vichy authorities is not known for certain, but is under investigation by serious historians, and it has not as yet been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the King took or was compelled to take some sort of pro-active action to rescue Moroccan Jews from danger, or that the Vichy French administration asked the King to help extend their anti-Jewish legislations beyond the European Jews living in Morocco to the Moroccan Jews themselves. It is known that the Vichy French targetted Jews living in the European quarters under their direct rule. They expelled many Moroccan Jews living in those quarters to the mellahs, and a sent a number of European Jews living in those quarters to slave labor camps in the Moroccan desert. But, as Morocco was a protectorate and not a Departement (like Algeria), it is not at all clear that the Vichy French administration was busying itself with the task of segregating Jews from Moslems among the Moroccan subjects of King Mohammed V. Nor is it clear that if the Vichy French had really wanted to extend their racist laws thus, the King could have done anything to stop them. Your article fails to provide a convincing analysis. J.D.

Genetics

I am interested in this - if you take religious superstitions out of the picture, then is in't it true that moroccan jews are essentially ARABS - their genetics, their dna is arabian, no? they are closer to arabs than to the european jews. and on the subject of european jews - what is the genetic makeup of say russian jews? if you forget about the religious crap - what are the genetics? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.57.254.102 (talk) 23:09, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

This question is off-topic in terms of history. But since it's gone unanswered for 15 years, and in case others wonder too: it has been answered in Moroccan Jews: "Over the years, the Moroccan Jews' DNA was examined and studied by numerous studies, the general image of it showed that in terms of Y-DNA it was mainly from the same Levantine source as the vast majority of the world's Jewry, meaning that they too are descendants of the Ancient Israelites from the Biblical times."

Judaism is an ethnoreligion: it's a collection of traditional cultural practices of a particular ethnic group. Oakling (talk) 17:22, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Merger proposal

You can see my rationale and comment at Talk:Moroccan Jewry#Merger proposal. I'll be bold and do the merging myself if there are no objections in the next few days. NickDupree (talk) 06:52, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

yellow star

deleted the yellow star sentence, as Vichy never implemented this law. It was a German decree in the occupied zone —Preceding unsigned comment added by Magnificent7 (talk • contribs) 22:19, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

The source says they implemented the law. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:56, 18 April 2010

You think a newspaper is a reliable source? Check every history book about Vichy France instead of a newspaper. "Mohammed V rejected orders set out by France's collaborationist Vichy government as early as 1940. He refused to make the 200,000 Jews then living in Morocco wear yellow stars, as they did in France" is just a legend. Vichy France refused the Yellow star to manage public opinion. Just don't get me wrong, It's nothing about being less harsh on Vichy measures (instead of the Yellow star, they enforced a law in december 1942 about a red rubber stamp ('JEW') on the identites documents for Jews in France. By this time North Africa - except for Tunisia where German army was present and enforced Yellow star measures - wasn't under Vichy law anymore. If you read french, check this page http://pagesperso-orange.fr/d-d.natanson/etoile_juive.htm

New book

The book talked about here might be useful for this article. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 14:21, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Criticism, moved from article

User:Tashfine writes:

The article heavily relies on The Jewish Encyclopedia.com: The Unedited Full Text. Many claims regarding issues and past events such as the presence of "tribes" warring with and against Idriss I are not supported by archaeological finds or solid facts but are rather relying on unique, incomplete and unreliable sources (e.g. Marcus Fisher, Ibn Verga).

In addition, unscientific expressions such as "a supposedly", "Later traditions attribute", "in one of the many versions of the narrative", " so and so is said to..." as well as many other similar expressions fill the text. The use of the passive voice and a poor writing style confuses the reader and the novice who is not acquainted with the History of Morocco, Spain and Portugal. Another problem with the article is that it makes unfounded assumptions in many places. For instance, the fact that there are current Moroccan Muslim names of Jewish Origins does not mean necessarily that those people were forced to convert.

On another level, we are startled when we read the numbers of the Jews who were 'killed' by the Almowahads or died under the Merinids and the Saadites. After all, if we believe those numbers, the question that'll haunt us is: If we consider that Jews immigrated to many countries before the Spanish Expulsion and after it, what was the ratio of the Muslims to Jews in Morocco, Spain (Al Andalus) and Portugal then?

It should be noted that the Muslims in Spain (Al Andalus) suffered under the Spanish Saint Inquisition the same ill-treatment, massacres and planned, systematic but gradual conversion as the Jews, a fact that the author (s) omit(s) to mention. The Muslims, like the Jews, suffered from a series of policies aimed at erasing their trace, obscuring their contribution and heritage in Spain, and forcing them to convert and loose their identity.

The author(s) also label(s) Moulay Ismail, of the Alaouite Dynasty, as the ‘Cruelest of the Tyrants’ and accuse him of afflicting the Jews with heavy taxes and trying to convert them. However, we learn from the same author(s) that it is under this same ‘tyrant’ that Joseph the Toledani, a Jew, is appointed close Counselor and Minister, and the synagogues were build. The author(s) also report(s) that Moulay Ismail appointed the Jews as tax collectors and served as an arbiter between their top leaders, Maimaran, 'Chief Ruler of the Moroccan Jewish Community', and Moses ibn 'A??ar, 'Moorish Plenipotentiary' vis-à-vis Britain. Strange ways of a ‘tyrant’, isn’t it?

It should be noted that most-if not all- historians agree that The Golden Jewish Age coincides with the Muslim rule of Spain, a big part of which was actually under Al Morabiteen (Almoravids) and (Al Mowahideen) Almowahads.

Overall the article, like its Wikipedia French twin, lacks academic rigor and falls short of been convincing. We invite the serious reader to be alert to its many unfounded assumptions and to put the events that surrounded the Jewish immigration to Morocco, after the Spanish Expulsion of both Muslims and Jews in its historical context and to scrutinize the references and the writings in this period, bearing in mind the historical tensions between the West and the Islamic world during the times of the Reconquista, the Crusades and the colonial period.

Tom Harrison ^Talk 18:51, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Bias Language

The way things are phrases and the language used in this article are really biased. It doesn't read like an encyclopedic article at all. 70.187.179.139 (talk) 20:18, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Overlap with Jewish exodus article

Please see discussion at Talk:Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries#Overlap_with_.22History_of_the_Jews_in....22_articles. Oncenawhile (talk) 10:08, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Under the Romans

I have an issue with "When the Jews began to disperse throughout the Roman empire after the dissolution of the Jewish state in 70 CE ..." The Jews did not begin to disperse in 70 CE. There was a huge Jewish diaspora existing in Hellenic times, two centuries before the Great Revolt (First Jewish–Roman War)of 70 CE - see http://classes.maxwell.syr.edu/his301-001/jeishh_diaspora_in_greece.htm. If no rebuttal is forthcoming, I will clarify the text. Erictheenquirer (talk) 11:20, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Then why not say just "when the Jews of Judaea began to disperse". I.e. there were already plenty of diaspora Jews; after 70 CE a lot of those still in Judaea dispersed as well. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 16:55, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Accuracy dispute

Nagatori, so there's a few issues with the edit you reverted. The first is that independent of any accuracy concerns, the information is out of order: we have long and detailed sections about first the Almoravids and then the Almohads in the following subsections, we don't need an additional paragraph about them prior to those sections, and we shouldn't be discussing the Almohads prior to the Almoravids. The second issue is that this content isn't supported by sources: the Jewish virtual library citation backing up the claim that Jews were deported to Algeria says nothing about Algeria or deportation. The next paragraph describes the Almoravids and Almohads as "fanatic Muslim sects", a description which could apply to the Almohads, but not to the Almoravids––in fact, this claim is directly contradicted by content in this article, in the Almoravid section. The cited source for the at-issue content once again does not back the claims made.

Finally, I have concerns about accuracy elsewhere in the article: the sections on the early sultans of the Alaouite dynasty appear to directly contradict this source. According to the current revision of this article The Jews suffered much during the great conquests of Moulay Rashid, but according to JVL, Mulay al-Rashid...was backed by the Jews of the Taza...[and] subsequently adopted a favorable attitude toward the Jews.. The claims in this article for that section are backed by 18th century (offline) French sources, whose actual text I have no way to access, and whose reliability I would doubt regardless. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:08, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

His edit re-adding the content and saying it is "supported by sources" is either a missstatement or a flat out lie, as the JVL source mentions nothing to support the addition. @Rosguill:, I'm reverting back to your reversion. - R9tgokunks ⭕ 23:53, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Unbelievable: No mention is made of the Fez Massacre of Jews in 1033

In 1033, several thousand jews were massacred in the city of Fez when the town was conquered by a Berber tribe. How can such an omission happen in such an article? Lack of historical knowledge? Or was this omitted on purpose? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:1206:456F:E3A0:59AE:A959:B068:7778 (talk) 07:56, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

If you have sources to support this claim, please add it to the article. Also, please remember to assume good faith on the part of your fellow editors. I note that the article does mention other massacres in Fez, so it seems particularly unlikely that it was intentionally omitted. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 08:02, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

I found a source that mentions it and will add it now. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 08:05, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

There are many sources, e.g., Israr Hasan, Believers and Brothers - a History of Uneasy Relationship. Bloomington 2009, p. 99; to mention only one. Check the Wiki article about the Fez massacre, and you will find others. The article 'masacre de Fez' in the Spanish Wiki is also worth reading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:1206:456F:E3A0:59AE:A959:B068:7778 (talk) 10:59, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:History of the Jews in Abkhazia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:10, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Discrepancy

The article says “and unlike the Muslim population French remains the main (and, in many cases, the exclusive) language of members of the Jewish community there.” I grew up in Morocco in the 50’s and 60’s my mother was a Jewish Moroccan from a well known family in Casablanca my experience is that they, as well as most Jewish Moroccans I came in contact with (of her generation ) spoke mostly in Arabic, followed by spanish and french. 2603:8001:9A00:F078:818D:E24:684D:37DD (talk) 04:48, 22 October 2023 (UTC)