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Talk:History of the Great Wall of China/GA1

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Reviewer: Hchc2009 (talk · contribs) 17:56, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well-written:

(a) the prose is clear and concise, respects copyright laws, and the spelling and grammar are correct;

  • "stemmed from a difference in geography." - I'd have gone for "differences in geography" (but not a GA-dependent point)?
  • "As Karl August Wittfogel points out" - I'd always recommend explaining who someone is when they're introduced, e.g. "As the Sinologist Karl...". Given that he's passed away, I'd also recommend "pointed out"
  • "Likewise, according to this model, " - I think you're right to emphasise that this is a model (and there are others out there), but if so, it needs to emphasised at the start of the paragraph, otherwise it sounds like undisputed fact.
  • Not needed at GA, but at ACR or similar I'd be recommending David Sneath's "The Headless State" as an alternative reading of some of the history here.
  • "Although Manchuria hosted the agricultural lands of the Liao River valley," - I wasn't sure about the "hosted" verb here (the agricultural lands in question couldn't easily move to a different host!) How about "held the agricultural lands" (or contained?) Hchc2009 (talk) 08:23, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Among the first mentions of a wall built against northern invaders is found in a poem," I think there's a word missing here (the sentence doesn't have a subject in it) - could be "One of the first mentions..." or "is an account found in a poem"?
  • "Most importantly, the fall of Western Zhou redistributed power to the states within and without Zhou's nominal rulership" - "states within and wihout..." read a bit awkwardly to me (I've heard of "within a kingdom" or "within an empire" or "within borders" but not "within rulership")
  • "The rule of the Eastern Zhou dynasty would be marked" - minor, but could just be "was marked" (avoiding the conditional)
  • "Three lines of walls were dated to be around King Wuling's reign: " unclear when this dating took place (and also quite what was meant; are these extant walls? Or did he only built three lines?)
  • "The walls were erected sparingly where natural barriers like ravines and rivers sufficed for defence, but long fortified lines were laid" This could be read in two ways up until halfway through the sentence; I'd advise "Where natural barriers like ravines and rivers sufficed for defence, the walls were erected sparingly, but long fortified lines were laid..."
  • "Details of the construction were not found in the official histories," - minor, but would "in the contemporary histories" (or "contemporary chronicles"?) be clearer?
    •  Fixed I have made clear of what is meant by "official histories" with a wikilink. This is to distinguish what we know from the official histories (namely the Twenty Four Histories) from the caches of local histories and private clan annals that could have records of wall construction in Qin times, but is not currently known. _dk (talk) 11:56, 26 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • " The Cambridge History of China posits that " minor, but I'd recommend naming Bodde, given that this is his judgment.
  • "The settlement in the north continued up to Qin Shi Huang's death in 210 BC," - I wasn't 100% sure if this meant that the attempt to settle the north continued up until 210 BC, ("The settlement of the north") or if this was the date of when "Meng Tian's settlements in the north were abandoned", mentioned in the next paragraph ("The settlements in the north...").
  • "In 202 BC, the peasant-turned faction leader Liu Bang" - struck me as an odd phrase. How about "In 202 BC, the former peasant Liu Bang"?
  • "emperor of the Han dynasty" - I think the MOS would have this as "Emperor of the Han dynasty"
  • "to negotiate with the Xiongnu for appeasement." - I'm not sure this is right; did he really negotiate "for" appeasement? (i.e. he wanted appeasement from them) Or does it mean that he offered to appease the Xiongu? The next sentence, "the Han would offered tributes along with princesses" is also a bit unclear - are the Han offering tributes, or being offered tributes?
  • "the Xiongnu cavalry numbering up to a 100,000 " - "numbering up to 100,000"?
  • " the Xianbei emperor" - this seems to be a specific emperor, so should be capitalised under the MOS
    •  Fixed "Xianbei" is the name of the people (think "Manchus"). Clarifying this and the fact that more than one emperor sinicized by applying the plural form to "emperor". _dk (talk) 11:56, 26 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "succeeded by the Northern Qi (550–575) in the east and Northern Zhou (557–580) in the west" - the "northern Qi in the east" and "northern Zhou in the west" caused be to doubletake at first. I'm wondering if the "in the east" and "in the west" are actually needed in this context?
    •  Done I would say the east and west part provides a geographical context preparing the reader for the next bit, detailing where the Qi and Zhou constructed their walls. But I see what you mean, I removed them. _dk (talk) 11:56, 26 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "stood poised for the conquest of the Jin dynasty." - felt a little melo-dramatic for my personal tastes, but not strictly a GA point.
  • "installed the emperor's brother" - should be "emperor's brother"
  • "At its height, the Xuan–Da portion of the Great Wall totalled about 850 kilometres (530 mi) of wall, with some sections being doubled-up, tripled, or even quadrupled." - was unclear if this was doubled-up as in length, or doubled-up with two lines of wall. If the former I'd recommend "with some sections being doubled in length"; if the latter, I'd make that clear.
  • "jailed on charges of faulty and wasteful wall-building" - is this a direct translation? I could see what was meant, but it sounded a bit quaint/amusing ("you are guilty of wasteful wall-building!") - is there any other way it could be described?
  • "the Ming court assembled a four-pronged Chinese–Korean army numbering above a 100,000 men" - "numbering over 100,000 men"; btw, I wasn't sure that the "four-pronged" bit was adding anything to this paragraph.
  • "On the 7th of October 1834, we arrived at the Great Wall, so highly extolled by those who know nothing about it, and so emphatically described by those who have never seen it. This and other wonders of China should only be seen in pictures to maintain their reputation." - particularly given it is so prominent, the main text needs to describe who the quote is from.
  • "The notion of a colossal wall in Asia existed in the Middle East..." "The existence of a colossal wall in Asia had circulated in the Middle East..."?
  • "and the other western powers" - I think this should be "Western"
  • "double their number of Japanese troop for several months. " - "Japanese troops"
  • "as part of the Four Olds to be" - I'd put Four Olds in speechmarks
  • "the Great Wall near Beijing "looking like a Hollywood set"." - worth noting who the quote is from in the main text. Hchc2009 (talk) 15:21, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

  • I'm not sure about the lead. I'm not sure that the first paragraph adequately summarises the article - which is quite long, with lots of excellent information! The second and third paragraphs then don't seem to be reflected in the main text (which I presume is why they're referenced independently), when I would have expected the information in them to already be down below. Have a look at WP:LEAD for more on the policy around this. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:01, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    •  Question: I...I am not sure what to put in the lead myself due to the abundance of information. The second and third paragraph actually does reflect the "Modern China" section, albeit very briefly in a "skimmy" way. The references in the lead were copied from the main text down below or are within the realms of common knowledge (like the Great Wall being a national symbol). _dk (talk) 11:56, 26 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm up for trying to draft something on this page as a strawman for you to edit if you like? I've had the same problem myself with longer articles, so I know how you feel. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:12, 27 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Factually accurate and verifiable:

(a) it provides references to all sources of information in the section(s) dedicated to the attribution of these sources according to the guide to layout;

Comment Confusing pinyin references switched to English, now reads Collected reports on surveys of the Great Wall of China (translated title).  Philg88 ♦talk 08:37, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(b) it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines;

(c) it contains no original research.

Broad in its coverage:

(a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic;

(b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias, giving due weight to each.

Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.

Illustrated, if possible, by images:

(a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content;

  • File:Gobi desert map.png; the underlying terrain data needs a US NASA tag.
Question? I cannot find a NASA template for data, only for complete images.  Philg88 ♦talk 04:53, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Shanhaiguan.gif; needs a date (even if approximate) to justify the tag; the PD-Art template needs to be filled in; and it needs a US copyright tag
 Done Dated to Ming Dynasty, licence updated to PD-100.  Philg88 ♦talk 04:53, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done US copyright unexpired based on a creation date of 1933. PRC copyright tag in place  Philg88 ♦talk 04:53, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If it's lacking a valid US copyright tag, then it shouldn't be being used here; I think you're right, though, as it appears to be anonymous and with no evidence of publication, so it would still be under copyright. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:01, 24 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(b) images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.


Thank you Hchc2009 for your extensive review and suggestions! First of all I am terribly sorry to have responded so late: I forgot to put this review page on the watchlist thinking that I had done so already. I have acted on all the advice above and replied to specific points where appropriate. _dk (talk) 11:56, 26 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A rough strawman for a possible expanded lead: (NB: I haven't put any wikilinks in etc.)

The history of the Great Wall of China traditionally began when fortifications built by various states during the Spring and Autumn (771–476 bc) and Warring States periods (475–221 bc) were connected by the first emperor of China, Qin Shi Huang, to protect his newly founded Qin dynasty (221–206 bc) against incursions by nomads from Inner Asia. The walls were built of rammed earth, constructed using forced labour, and by 212 bc ran from Gansu to the Manchurian coast.

Later dynasties adopted different policies towards the walls. The Han (202 bc – 220 ad), the Northern Qi (550–574), the Sui (589–618), and particularly the Ming (1369–1644) were among those that rebuilt, re-manned, and expanded the Walls, although they rarely followed Qin's original routes. The Han enhanced the walls with embankments, beacon stations, and forts, the Qi expanded the walls by about 1,600 kilometres (990 mi), while the Sui mobilised over a million men in their wall-building efforts.

Conversely, the Tang (618–907), the Song (960–1279), the Yuan (1271–1368), and the Qing (1644–1911) mostly left the Walls to rot, having resolved the Inner Asian threat through military campaigns and diplomacy (the Tang, Yuan, and Qing), or were simply took weak to build walls (the Song). At several points throughout its history the Great Wall failed to prevent invaders from conquering China, including in 1644 when the Manchu Qing marched through the gates of the Shanhai Pass and replaced the most ardent of the wall-building dynasties, the Ming, as rulers of China.

The Great Wall of China visible today largely dates from the Ming dynasty, who rebuilt much of the wall in stone and brick, often extending its line through challenging terrain. Some sections remain in relatively good condition or have been renovated while others have been damaged or destroyed for ideological reasons, robbed or demolished for their building materials, or lost due to the ravages of time. In the 21st century, the wall is a revered national symbol in modern China and a popular tourist destination.

Thanks @Hchc2009! I have incorporated this lead into the article with some adjustments (mainly reordering some phrases and to avoid implying that the Great Wall was one unitary structure). Please have a look to see if this is ok :) _dk (talk) 07:39, 7 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
All looking good. Only remaining issue is the US copyright tag for File:Greatwall 1933 china.jpg, and it's good to go at GA. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:32, 10 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As it appears that we won't be able to determine the actual copyright status of that picture (shame too, hard hats on the wall is a good contrast to Nixon on the following picture.) I've swapped it with another Great Wall photo. _dk (talk) 08:34, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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