Talk:Hikmat Zaid

This article was nominated for deletion on 12 August 2024. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Abul7ik (talk · contribs) This user has contributed to the article. This user has declared a connection. This user has been banned and may therefore be reverted on sight.

AfC review

BLP and personal information

Hi @85Hikmat, the source in the article [1] suggests the birth year of the subject is 1949 but the draft claims 1945. Is this a mistake or is there something else we can cross-reference here? Bobby Cohn (talk) 01:23, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is 1945 and the arabic page also have it on 1945. It is probably a and I have contacted the source to fix it asap. 85Hikmat (talk) 01:36, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A typo* 85Hikmat (talk) 01:36, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We'll have to ensure it is fixed from the source first, as we cannot use the arabic page as we can't cite to Wikipedia, see WP:CITOGENESIS and WP:User generated content. Bobby Cohn (talk) 01:57, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This source is in english and has the correct birth year. https://www.all4palestine.org/ModelDetails.aspx?gid=14&mid=77959&lang=en 85Hikmat (talk) 03:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As this article is a WP:BLP, there will need to be sources of previously published material for personal information. Are there any sources that discuss the personal information, particularly the content presently about family in the "Personal life" section? Bobby Cohn (talk) 01:44, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've been going through the sources that I can with Google translate, so forgive me if I've missed something. But are there citations that exist that back-up the subjects educational history presently in the "Early life and education" section? Bobby Cohn (talk) 01:53, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The overall tone feels POV, and I'd questions some of the independence of the sources. The last paragraph would be a great campaign blurb, but the translation of the source suggests that much of that needs to be attributed to the Fatah Movement, of which Zaid is a non-trivial member. Ravensfire (talk) 02:10, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good catch, and thanks for weighing in here. I had begun to clean the POV from the lead and was clearing it of the BLP issues before tackling the full length of the career section, also noting that it needed to correspond with the info box and citations as well. Bobby Cohn (talk) 02:26, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello,

Thank you guys for your reply. I would agree that Zaid is no longer a trivial member of Fatah these days as age caught him so it's much harder to find more modern sources and articles. Regardless however I was able to collect way more sources and add additional content to the draft, including one for the last paragraph (personal life). e.g. dailynorthwestern.com., www.all4palestine.org, www.jta.org, www.arabnews.com and www.aljazeera.net

Let me know what you guys think. 85Hikmat (talk) 05:12, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Added citations to his early career, personal life, education and rest of the article emphasising his membership within the Fatah political party. 85Hikmat (talk) 14:05, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the personal information that could not be verified in The Daily Northwestern source has been removed, as well as names of children, these are not typically included on Wikipedia articles. Bobby Cohn (talk) 15:21, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The children were in the article you removed in personal life.

https://dailynorthwestern.com/2002/05/16/archive-manual/growing-up-in-the-plo/

"Through all of this turmoil, Hikmat managed to raise four children: a daughter, 30-year-old Hadil, and three sons, 26-year-old Zeid, Hisham, and 17-year-old Samer. Hisham remembers frequent moves during his youth with the PLO as the one constant." 85Hikmat (talk) 15:47, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, while the children's names were included in the source article, names of family members are often not included in Wikipedia articles if they themselves are not WP:Notable, as is especially the case here as the citation given was not WP:Independent, you can read more about the different types of WP:Reliable sources but this one in particular was an interview. Bobby Cohn (talk) 16:37, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Style

A number of these blue links, especially for positions in the government, will need to be corrected as they are simply WP:EASTEREGGS. For example, "5th Transport Minister" cannot pipe to Transport in the State of Palestine as that is not what the reader will be expecting. That example is particularly bad as there is no mention of government policy or the ministerial cabinet on the target page. If you can think of more appropriate target, the proper solution would be to request a redirect at WP:AFC/R for either Palestinian Ministry of Transportation or a similar title and have it redirect to a broader government or policy page. Bobby Cohn (talk) 16:33, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You may find more help for this particular topic at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Palestine; given the complex nature of the Palestinian government, it is not something I am inherently knowledgeable in and cannot advise further. Bobby Cohn (talk) 16:40, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the advice I'll starting doing some changes right away. 85Hikmat (talk) 17:20, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A number of your sources appear to be using the |title= parameter in the {{cite web}} template to just verify or use a placeholder for the claim you've made in the text. This is a change made by yourself and very contradictory to our policy on WP:Verifiability. It is imperative that you cite the material as it was published. This includes the title of the article, the name of the website. Further, I would also advise you use the template {{cite news}} from the reference toolbar (see WP:REFB) as well as name your references if you are trying to keep track of information and use them again. See this change Special:Diff/1239137153 as an example. This includes the author for the complete record. If you have any question, please ask, but understand we take this very seriously on Wikipedia. Bobby Cohn (talk) 19:45, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed all references with false titles, used ones from the actual article instead. Translated the ones in arabic by adding trans-title parameter aswell. Added date, publisher and author parameters if available. 85Hikmat (talk) 23:52, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Contesting that the article is poorly sourced

I argue that the article is very well sourced using a dozen different sources. If we compare to other Palestinian politicians, this article is way well above average in terms of writing and referencing. Abul7ik (talk) 13:30, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism towards the individual was also brought up to further ensure NPOV

1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikmat_Zaid#Advisory_Role

...Taher al-Nunu, the spokesman for the dismissed Hamas government at the time, announced on Sunday the statements made by Hikmat Zaid, the advisor to the Palestinian president, about his unwillingness to meet with Ismail Haniyeh are contrary to the truth and that no official meeting was scheduled between both parties...

2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikmat_Zaid#PLO_property_dispute

Presidential advisor Hikmat Zaid was implicated in facilitating the leakage of a PLO property in Musrara, Jerusalem...

@Bobby Cohn @Ravensfire Abul7ik (talk) 17:00, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you are asking my opinion, I had not yet gotten to an analysis of the reliability of some of the sources used during an AfC review before you had moved it to the mainspace but yes, on a cursory glance some do appear to be lass-than-reliable. But the article had not yet been tagged for such. Why do you ask, do you not think you have used reliable sources? Bobby Cohn (talk) 00:52, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My question is regarding why the article may still be thought of as written in non-NPOV even though the sources I have used are very well audited and include criticising points—as mentioned earlier—towards the individual in question. Abul7ik (talk) 02:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:DUE is not the only aspect of WP:NPOV. Statements such as:

Abu Zaid is nationally often considered as the spiritual father of the Ministry of Agriculture.
Under the esteemed patronage of Abu Zaid, Jenin is preparing to warmly welcome the Al-Wahdat team.
With over sixty contestants and a large audience, the event highlighted Minister Zaid’s commitment to sports and community engagement.

Are very promotional, for just a few examples where, to borrow Ravensfire's phrasing, they could just as well be a campaign blurb. Bobby Cohn (talk) 14:45, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2 and 3 are referenced from articles which state that he is the one who sponsored those events Abul7ik (talk) 19:08, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

added them to activities outside of politics category Abul7ik (talk) 19:09, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remember this is an encyclopedia, articles should be boring. Yes, sources will use lurid descriptions of things, but we an editors are supposed to be filtering things like that out and summarize the information in a more NPOV tone. Ravensfire (talk) 13:20, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see your point now and I'll try to rephrase the tone of language used in certain parts of the article. Thanks for your feedback. Abul7ik (talk) 18:06, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ravensfire@Bobby Cohn Replaced words like "esteemed," "warmly welcome," "instrumental," and "vital role," which may suggest a bias or undue praise with more neutral terms like "set to host," "reflects efforts," and "contributed to." to focus on what happened, who was involved, and what was accomplished, without inferring motives or outcomes that might reflect bias..

Also avoided loaded terms such as "implicated" and "leakage," which could suggest wrongdoing without clear evidence. Instead, it uses "mentioned in relation to" and "transfer," which are more neutral descriptions presenting the information in a straightforward manner, leaving the interpretation open to the reader. Abul7ik (talk) 10:51, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reconsider status of article as an autobiography and AI-generated

Comment by a sockpuppet account.
—Bobby Cohn (talk) 19:03, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I've rewritten every section of the article, shortening them from all the extra self-promoting content and keeping references intact. Would love if an editor can review the article once more and reconsider removing "multiple issues" template. Drake Thompson (talk) 14:18, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.