Talk:High school football

Comments

Obviously this article is in its infancy and needs extensive fleshing out. I'd like to spotlight the differences in rules and culture in HS football vis a vis the college and pro game, as well as cover topics like recruitment of HS players and negative perceptions of HS football (i.e. jocks as bullies and perceived over-spending on sports vs. education). Variations such as 8-man and 9-man should also be covered.

I don't intend for it to link to this and that HS team although I do think that teams of national prominence should have their own pages, as should each state's interscholastic leagues. Someone has already given good coverage to HS football leagues in North Dakota. --Abdulmakesfonts 17:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Problematic section et al

Hi all. I'm afraid there is a problem with the section "High school football phenoms". There seems to be no criteria for inclusion in it. Some of the people included are mentioned because they set a record while playing in High School, whereas others are mentioned for setting a record as a professional or as a college player (and one even for a career record — Emmitt Smith). That is a problem because without some kind of verifiable criterion or criteria, the inclusion of a player in that list becomes a matter of personal opinion, namely that of each particular user who happened to include one name or names. The point of who is a "phenomenon" from high school football and would be worthy of mention in the article, as such, becomes highly subjective, and definitively dependent on a person's idea of who can be considered a "phenomenon" for having set a particular record while playing in High School or maybe only when playing in college or as a professional (and didn't even set a record while in High School — or at least a record that still stands). All of this means that this section is currently a violation of not just one but two policies of Wikipedia, and cannot be kept in the article as is.
This can be fixed by finding some kind of verifiable criterion, for instance listing the names of every athlete who still holds a high school record. That would, of course, mean the exclusion of some of the names listed at this time, and the inclusion of others.
That being the case, I would appreciate it if someone with a better understanding of the sport's organization would look into it and find a way that we can make this usable on Wikipedia. If that can't be done, I will remove the entire section in a few days, unfortunately.
On a side note, unless the word "phenom" is widely used when referring to record holders, or early distinguished athletes, it would really be better to use the full-length word, in this case "phenomenon". We are, after all, an encyclopedia. Thanks, Redux 20:19, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I can see that in nearly two years, not much has changed. I have tagged this section. There are no references to confirm this list. Further, there is no criteria for inclusion. What makes one a "phenom" to be included? I think that this needs to be addressed in the article, and the list either trimmed or expanded to fit, but above all, properly referenced. If this can't be done, then the whole section should probably be deleted. LonelyBeacon (talk) 21:19, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Removed this section. I think Redux is right in that it would be more useful to list current record holders (maybe even in a separate article). Rwalker (talk) 20:58, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Related AfD

Please contribute your opinion to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of high school football rivalries (less than 100 years old). —Disavian (^talk/_contribs) 02:50, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Is "football" that ambiguous here?

The lead has a Wikilink to gridiron football. The lead makes it clear that the article is about the US and Canada. There's an illustration to the right of the lead showing gridiron players. Do we really need to splice a note onto the top of the article to clarify that it refers to gridiron and not soccer? —C.Fred (talk) 19:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I think the introduction should make it clear that it's American football we are talking about. By coincidence I just read an article that said 1 billion people can read English. Redddogg (talk) 22:56, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Rules

I think there should be a section that explains the HS Football ruels(if posssible).Rdrgz 93 (talk) 01:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The rules are covered at American football rules. Key differences like timing are covered in summary here. —C.Fred (talk) 01:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Most popular in US

I don't have time to fully embed it, but by participants, 11-man football is the most popular sport in the US. http://www.nfhs.org/web/2007/09/high_school_sports_participation.aspx —C.Fred (talk) 04:25, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. Iowa13 (talk) 12:58, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Rugby's more popular in Canada

In the intro it says that after ice hockey, football is one of the most popular high school sports in Canada. I believe Canadian high schools play more rugby than football. Or is this only on the west coast? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.82.139.166 (talk) 23:21, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I think rugby is more popular on the west coast. Ice hockey isn't played much in high schools in Canada, it is played in community leagues or at the junior level. I think basketball is probably the most popular high school sport in Canada in terms or number of schools with teams.122.104.176.121 (talk) 06:59, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The abundance of external links

Is it just me, or is the list of external links starting to get awfully long? I think the national links are fine, but I also think it's not feasible - and beyond the scope of Wikipedia - to list a site (if not 2 or 3) for every state. Are there any objections if I pare the list down to just the nationals and get rid of the state-levels? —C.Fred (talk) 22:13, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that it is a red flag when an article has a list of external links this long, and only two references. I just added some boilerplates and some fact tags to give some of the experts around here some hints. It has got to be cited, or it has to go. LonelyBeacon (talk) 21:21, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the excessive list of links per what not to link and instead linked to the DMOZ link directory as suggested by links to be considered. This is a much better solution as the directory already breaks out each state. Rwalker (talk) 13:09, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

No problems?

Have any reliable sources mentioned anything negative about high school football? Just asking. Redddogg (talk) 22:54, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

football season

I think there may be more variation in the lenghth of the season and the starting date between different parts of the country than the article would seem to indicate. Is there a cite for the claim that the regular-season is 10-weeks long in "most" states? I'm not necessarily saying that this is wrong, but IME quite a few states have regular-seasons that last only 8 or 9 weeks. Also in some states, particularly in the north, the season may start in late August and conclude before the beginning of November.Johnsonkurtis (talk) 00:51, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Utah football rules on defensive rushing

To my great surprise, I was told that in Utah high schools, a person at the scrimmage line attempting to rush and tackle the quarterback must count aloud "1-alligator, 2-all..,...,5 alligator" before crossing the line. 198.189.194.129 (talk) 20:16, 10 February 2012 (UTC)--I have reinserted this text, which was removed by someone who considered it dubious. I'm not saying it is true, but I can say it was true that I was told that from someone who believed it was true and that person had some credibility.Rich (talk) 22:03, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I struck it as dubious—the claim is somewhere beyond outlandish. If they can present reliable sources to back the claim up, then I'm willing to discuss their claim that Utah strays from Federation rules. Otherwise, I don't think it belongs on the article talk page. —C.Fred (talk) 22:06, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

You don't think it belongs on the TALK page? Do you have a reliable source that specifically says such rules are nowhere a part of high school football? If not I think it would be outlandish to remove it from the talk page.--Rich Peterson216.86.177.36 (talk) 23:27, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

The claim is false. I went to the UHSAA website and checked their football policies.[1] It mentions the two state adoptions they've made under NFHSAA rules (overtime procedures and running clock rule) and procedural items they've implemented (playoffs, coaches exchanging game tapes, etc.). Nowhere does it mention that they have set aside Federation rules as the 198.* IP alleges. —C.Fred (talk) 00:42, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I never alleged any such thing. I alleged that someone told me about rushing rules at Utah high schools. But I have just noticed I had originally, and just now, said "at Utah high schools". It would have been clearer if I had said "at certain Utah high schools", since I don't know if the person was claiming it was true at every, or even many high schools. In my opinion, with the prevalence of "1-missiissipi,..." counting in pickup games, it seems possible that some private high schools, somewhere, have chosen rules like that.--Rich Peterson198.189.194.129 (talk) 20:28, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Divisions?

I personally know nothing about divisions so perhaps it's not possible to include a section on "High School Divisions"? Are they broken down differently in each state or is it a national categorization. I know there are terms like Division 1 or Division A (heck, I don't know...can someone clarify?) Thisisfutile (talk) 17:14, 1 March 2014 (UTC)thisisfutile

There's too much variation from state to state to summarize it here. Generally, it's a scale where some multiple number of As is the classification for the largest schools and single A is for the smallest. (The largest in Georgia is AAAAAA; the largest in Indiana at last check is AAAAA.) There are a few states where A is the largest and C or D is the smallest. There's also different nomenclature for grouping of teams: Georgia has regions, North Carolina has conferences, and Indiana has both sections and conferences (sections apply to tournament play; conferences are for regular season and may include teams from multiple classifications). That's too much detail to try to get into here; it's better covered at the articles for the state associations. —C.Fred (talk) 03:14, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

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Injuries section.

A poorly sourced section had been repeatedly added about concussions and other injuries. I don't know if this is good faith but WP:CIR editing or an intentional attempt to add improperly sourced material, WP:OR, and WP:SYNTH. Some of the material is useful, but:

• Blank ref tags are not sources. They just make the text look like it is sourced. [2]
• Refs that don't actually support the claim are not acceptable.[3]
• Some of the claims overstate what the ref says. If the ref says a rate is "nearly double" (11.2 vs 6.3) don't say "double" in the Wikipedia article.[4]. "although studies remain conflicting, it is believed that as many as 15% of people with a history of mTBI still suffer from deficits one year after injury." does not equate to "15% of people who suffer Just 1 concussion have permanent brain damage" [5]
• There appears to be some WP:SYNTH or outright addition of material that is not in the cited source [6]
• Don't use WP:WEASEL words. We don't cite results from anonymous "Neurologists" [7] and one neurologist is not "neurologists" [8]
• keep it on topic. The article is about high school football. It's not about injuries to college ball players or injuries to pro players, or injuries to pre-high school kids, or non-football related injuries, or CTE in general. In this article only material about injuries to high school football players is appropriate. [9] [10] [11] Meters (talk) 00:36, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

I've converted some of the strange "documentary" entries into proper external links or references. There is no point in restoring the original entries for those ones. And please discuss any of the others before restoring them. Some of them are links to copyright violating YouTube videos while others have nothing to do with high school football. There may be one of two more that could be used but I'm not going through them all yet again here unless someone gives some reason why we should include them. I've given my reasons for removing them in the edit summaries. Meters (talk) 03:02, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

(You deleted every add line)

High School Football Officials removed content several days ago because they want to hide the truth.... Is this the 1950's?

Helmets do not protect players from concussion. is a true statement with references .... parents need to see the truth because it is in the interests of protecting kids. Unfortunately it isn't being told to enough people in the USA. This is documented...

So who is telling WIKI they must remove true information from pages? Or is it just inconvenient truth for some people who want Football to remain as it is hurting kids?

I'm submitting this little dalliance to the New York Times because it's interesting that WIKI will not allow true content.

If you use the existing data to do a calculation = # concussion you still have to show a reference? 85,000 concussions for 1.1 million HS football players per year. based on the 11.7 per 10000

CTE is new and young people with CTE is very explosive news to Football parents.... it needs to be discussed. I was removing all Youtube references with original articles which you then deleted once again.

Many football people want to say its the old people who are getting CET and here are young people with this disease, there is no cure , the link is blows to the head.... So you remove blows to the head and CTE goes away....

Documentaries:

• League of Denial PBS 2013 Describe: NFL Concussions Criss, CTE, NFL, Chris Nowinski
• Big Hits Broken Dreams Nathan Stiles 17 was found to have CTE (he started playing football in 7th grade and died in 12th grade from a TBI.

Documented with references yet they were deleted.... John Doe 18 was found to have CTE in this brain. Multi sport athlete. 65.31.167.237 (talk) 03:29, 27 August 2017 (UTC) response originally left on user talk page[12] moved here to keep discussion together. Reformatted for indents etc) Meters (talk) 04:03, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

I see no evidence that "High School Football Officials removed content" from this article.Either support that accusation of redact it.

I didn't delete everything. I reworked some material, I kept some of the links but properly, as external links or references, and I added at least one new source. I removed some material that was unsourced, a copyright violation, or not applicable to this article. If there is something that was unsourced that belongs in the article then just provide a reliable source. It's up to you to provide reliable sources for unsourced material that has been removed. If there is something that I removed for some other reason that you think should be in the article then please discuss it.

Your comment "submitting this little dalliance to the New York Times" sounds very much like a threat. Not a good idea.

yes, you do indeed need a source that justify your calculation. Please explain how you did it. We don't know where your claim of 1.1 million players comes from, and your supposed calculation "85,000 concussions for 1.1 million HS football players per year. based on the 11.7 per 10000" is completely bogus. Simple calculations do not need sources, but your calculation is completely wrong. The correct rate I used in the article is is 11.2, not 11.7, and that is a rate of concussions/10,000 appearances. An appearance for a player is defined as a game or practice. You say there are 1.1 million HS players. It is impossible to determine how many concussions happened from that information. You need to know the total number of games and practices participated in by all of the players combined, not how many players there are. For that matter, even if you had used 1.1 million as the number of appearances rather than the number of players the calculation does not give 85,000 concussions using a rate of either 11.2 or 11.7/10000. 11.2 gives 12,320 1230 and 11.7 gives 12,870 1287.

With regard to the documentaries:

The NFL one "League of Denial" is irrelevant to this article. As I have pointed out several times, this is an article about high school football. It is not about injuries in the NFL.

"Big Hits Broken Dreams" might be a useful documentary, but what you have linked to is nothing but a disjointed promo for the actual documentary. That's not useful for anything (except perhaps to show that CNN scheduled the documentary).

As far as I can tell "18 year old high school football player" was never in any of your edits. Is this a new source you would like to use? I have no problem with adding this. I have already added and sourced the statement that CTE has been found in players who only played for a few years and never beyond the high school level. Another source is fine. Meters (talk) 05:02, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

This article is not the place for a general discussion of CTE or football injuries. Some of the material that is not appropriate for this article might be of use elsewhere, in Chronic traumatic encephalopathy or Sports injury for example. Meters (talk) 05:14, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

References

A couple things. First, the entire discussion of injuries is outside the scope of this article. That's a medical topic, WP:MEDRS definitely applies, and I don't think I'm alone in declaring editing MEDRS topics is outside my scope as an editor. Second, I notice that there is a very experienced editor who has contributed to this page, C.Fred, so I'm pinging him. To restate my opening sentence, the entirety of the injuries copy needs to go until it can be reviewed by an experienced MEDRS editor, and after that should probably be covered in a separate article that can be referred to here. It's possible that article already exists. John from Idegon (talk) 20:12, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

An article about concussions in (gridiron) football is probably warranted, but it should cover injuries at all levels, not just in high school. So, in that line, I don't think the material on injuries belongs here. The coverage that would belong here relates specifically to HS: like the recent re-emphasis on targeting and illegal helmet contact, or the period of time when spearing carried an automatic disqualification. —C.Fred (talk) 20:16, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

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