Talk:High school football national championships

Wholesale page changes

Not sure where @Moglesby1999: gets off wholesale deletions of other's lengthy contributions, as previously noted by @Theduder3210:. This is antithetical to Wikipedia guidelines.

This last round of edits by Moglesby1999 undid an entire year's worth of improvements, citation + content updates in addition to the deletion of over 160 original source references.

A second level warning has been placed on the user's talk page.

Other mythical national high school championships

High school football national championship redirects here. However, it's my understanding that historically there have been other mythical national champion lists for US high school football besides this one. For example, this page (apparently not a WP:RS) lists some championships that do not appear in this article, including lists for 8-man football. Does anyone know of an authoritative list of the the various other national championship lists?

Why I'm asking: I've edited several articles for schools that claim to have been national champions, but don't appear here. Examples are Oak Ridge High School (Oak Ridge, Tennessee), which is often reported to have been mythical champion in 1958 (for example, see this source), and Knoxville High School (Tennessee), which a good source says was national champion in 1930 and 1937. --Orlady (talk) 22:38, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm in the process of researching a book on what Garfield (NJ) and Miami High Schools considered the national championship game in 1939, the same year Pine Bluff defeated Baton Rouge. In any case, I'm curious as to the source of your information concerning Massilon's refusal to play Knoxville if it meant not using their black players. I cannot find any references to that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hgola (talk • contribs) 18:24, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Conflicting lists of "National Sports News Service" champions

As I noted in one of my recent updates to this article, some of the older NSNS champion lists need to be acknowledged as failing to completely match the more recent NSNS champion lists. Perhaps the early NSNS title-winners were not documented very well at the time and a truly accurate list of NSNS champs has fallen victim to poor record-keeping. Now, the NSNS did go through several proprietors over its existence through the decades. Information could have been lost, or maybe one or more of the later facilitators of the NSNS rankings went back and retroactively changed some of the past champions to reflect new information that had come to light...or simply to reflect their own personal style of picking champions—I haven't been able to verify that one way or the other to explain the discrepancies between the older and newer NSNS champion listings. But be that as it may, I have noticed that multiple edits have been made specifically to remove the 1978 Stratford High entry, despite numerous recent references listing that school, including sources that were used by this article's creator, @Iowa13:, and its recent frequent contributor, @KTKT2020:. As I recall, @Cbl62: and @Jweiss11: discussed this same problem concerning a different Wikipedia football article and agreed that the best course of action in times like these when references won't agree is to just acknowledge the two possible truths, and the conflicting sources, within the text of the article. In that regard, I think that we should follow their lead here as well and clarify, but not delete, the Stratford High entry, @Moglesby1999:.

In addition, since I have verified that a second selector, Simon Lyons, has also named Stratford as 1978 champ, I ask that you reconsider altering that one as well, especially since it has been properly cited and should not generate any controversy like the recent NSNS references. Theduder3210 (talk) 03:30, 17 April 2021 (UTC).

The “actual” rankings, from 1978 have been posted in the reference section to this page. Stratford HS of Houston, TX is not number 1 in 1978. Moreover, your citations (in an attempt to falsely support this) in your note make “no” such reference to such a ranking but appear to be added as fluff, rather than actually supporting this false ranking. They almost appear to be “random” citations but, certainly, in no way support your false claim. Finally, your citing of random users or editors has absolutely zero effect. Shall I cite 100 or more users that support the “actual” ranking in 1978, which does not list Stratford HS, of Houston, TX as #1 in year 1978? Attempting to rewrite history does not change history. Finally, there were NO “conflicting” rankings in 1978 (as you state). There was only 1 ranking that year (1978) and Annandale HS of Annandale, Virginia was the SOLE team ranked number 1 in the country by the NSNS (the only ranking body at the time). Repeating a lie over and over, does not make it so. In fact, try Googling Stratford, HS and “national high school football champions 1978” and you will find nothing.....zilch.....nada. Why is this? The answer is quite obvious, they were not ranked #1 in 1978 in HS football (they were, in fact, ranked #2 - see the “actual” original ranking posted in the reference section of this page) and, I believe, based upon your repeated false postings that you, indeed, are fully aware that you are posting false information on this page. Your continued false postings are embarrassing. Moglesby1999 (talk) 18:22, 3 June 2021 (UTC).

Well, with all due respect, I don't really agree that I should find this "embarrassing" as, again, I have attempted to follow a precedent that was set previously within the scope of Wikipedia's football champions listings when @Cbl62:, @Jeff in CA:, and @Jweiss11: made the decision to acknowledge both sides when references conflicted concerning Parke H. Davis' 1901 pick for college football champion—if I misinterpreted the measures that they undertook to improve that article, then they are more than welcome to feel free to use this opportunity to jump in and correct me. Otherwise, since there are multiple incidences of recent listings of NSNS rankings not matching older listings, I have tried to be as fair and impartial as possible when pointing that out, complete with numerous reference citations.

We know that the NSNS rankings were fostered by 3 different people over many decades, the most recent of whom always listed Stratford as one of the 1978 champions. Though you just associated this info with "random" and "false" citations in your statement above, the data was actually taken directly from his own works, so these should be considered primary sources. We don't really know yet why he did this, although I do continue to research to determine the true reason. Otherwise, I feel that I have gone above and beyond to locate and cite upwards of four different references showing that the most recent owner of the rankings gave Stratford a share of the 1978 title.

Furthermore, I cited two additional selectors—one who picked Stratford as the outright champ for 1978 and one who even picked St. Paul of California outright—and yet you deleted both of those, despite those two having absolutely nothing to do with the issue over the NSNS' choice. I feel that I have been way more than courteous and civil to acknowledge your claim despite the fact that you appear to have altered the 1978 entry for this article regularly going all the way back to July 12, 2008, at times anonymously without explanation and sometimes even pairing the edits with misleading summaries of the edits, such as "Fixed typo." So let's all just try to remain open to, and respectful of, other possible title-winners here and refrain from unnecessary deletions, especially when those deletions are made at the expense of the numerous citations backing them up. Theduder3210 (talk) 03:35, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

With all due respect, your citations make NO reference to Stratford being a national champion under ANY poll. As I said, there are NO (like in none) references to Stratford being ranking number 1 during in 1978. BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT. IT’S REAL SIMPLE. I strongly suggest you stop posting this false ranking. Wishful thinking does not make it so. And you are incorrect in your statement about 3 different rankings. THERE WAS ONLY 1 IN 1978. PERIOD. AND YOU KNOW IT. You seem to be making up items of support for this false claim. And, doing it repeatedly. I have checked your “citations” and they say NOTHING about Stratford being ranking number 1 in 1978. Probably because they were not. Putting garbage citations and support with your false claim does not change facts. Please Stop making false claims about Stratford and altering the correct ranking for 1978. They were not ranked #1 in 1978. Moreover, as stated, there was only ONE ranking during that time (not 3 as you falsely cite in your “narrative”). Your “primary” references are a joke (and seem to link to nothing indicating Stratford was number 1 in 1978) which, of course you already know. Please stop your crusade to rewrite history. We will continue to correct your FAKE postings. EVERY TIME. It is editors like you that try corrupt history and facts. It is sad and reprehensible. I am guessing that you are somehow associated with Stratford HS and trying to simply rewrite history. Truly Sad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moglesby1999 (talk • contribs) 17:58, 25 Jul 2021 (UTC)

Okay pal, looking back at this article for the first time in a while earlier this week, I couldn't believe that you again deleted sourced information—a section with eight source citations yet, multiple of which are primary sources that came directly from the owners of the rating system. Further, Wikipedia guidelines discourage editing the content of articles where there is a direct conflict of interest involved. Your ties with the program in question would constitute such a conflict of interest. Let's try to jointly work together, keep the referenced information that is currently in the article, and remain civil at all times for the continued betterment of all who read and learn from this article. Thank you.

Theduder3210 (talk) 05:21, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

New tables in this article

@Elsliderino: nice work with the new tables that have become a meaningful part of this article.

Speaking of new tables, I'm starting to wonder if all of these new "specialty polls" that have begun appearing randomly since 2005 should actually be separated out from the primary list of high school champions and given their own designated table just for themselves since they are, after all, still "national champions" on one hand but also remain different at the same time (most schools are not eligible for their honors). For example, I could envision something along the lines of this:

Specialty poll national championships, by year

Year	Public Schools (2005, 2013)	Medium Schools (2012–2013, 2015, 2018–2019)	Small Schools (2011–2016, 2018–Present)	Private Schools (2005, 2013)	Catholic Schools (2017–2019, 2021–Present)
2005	Southlake (TX) Carroll 16–0, Todd Dodge—AFMPuS	—	—	Cincinnati (OH) St. Xavier 15–0—AFMPrS	—
2006–2010	(no champions)
2011	—	—	Calhoun (GA) 15–0—MPSS	—	—
2012	—	Bellevue (WA) 14–0—MPMS	Davie (FL) University Roger Harriott—MPSS	—	—
2013	Hoover (AL) Josh Niblet—USAHSFPuS	Miami (FL) Booker T. Washington 14–0, Ice Harris—MPMS	Maria Stein (OH) Marion Local 15–0—MPSS	Bellflower (CA) St. John Bosco 15–0, Jason Negro—USAHSFPrS	—
2014	—	—	Jacksonville (FL) Trinity Christian MPSS	—	—
2015	—	Sammamish (WA) Eastside Catholic 13–0—HSFAMST25	Jacksonville (FL) Trinity Christian 14–0—HSFASST25, MPSS	—	—
2016	—	—	Munhall (PA) Steel Valley 15–0—MPSS	—	—
2017	—	—	—	—	Santa Ana (CA) Mater Dei 15–0, Bruce Rollinson—CAC
2018	—	Alcoa (TN) 15–0, Gary Rankin—HSFAMST25	Catawissa (PA) Southern Columbia Area 16–0—HSFASST25	—	Santa Ana (CA) Mater Dei 13–2, Bruce Rollinson—CAC
			Hollywood (FL) Chaminade–Madonna Prep 12–2—MPSS
2019	—	Miami (FL) Northwestern 13–2—HSFAMST25	Catawissa (PA) Southern Columbia Area 16–0—HSFASST25	—	Bellflower (CA) St. John Bosco 13–1, Jason Negro—CAC
			Cedar Hill (TX) Trinity Christian 13–1—MPSS
2020	—	—	Catawissa (PA) Southern Columbia Area 12–0, Jim Roth—MPSS	—	—
2021	—	—	China Spring (TX) 16–0, Brain Bell—MPSS	—	Santa Ana (CA) Mater Dei 12–0, Bruce Rollinson—CAC
2022	—	—	Carthage (TX) 16–0, Scott Surratt—MPSS	—

Theduder3210 (talk) 05:21, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Great idea! The specialty polls seem odd in their current placement. Elsliderino (talk) 15:41, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Selector qualifications

What exactly should qualify as a "Selector"? In recent years with social media, this qualification seems fairly subjective thus far. For experts, I added "based on rankings from prep experts and analysts in the media..." and the two algorithm selectors cited are used by USA Today (Massey) and CalPreps (MaxPreps plus CIF has been using them for playoff division breakouts for a few years now). Also included are the partnerships involved like SBLive and SI.

But again, with the proliferation of polls, it's subjective and anyone with a Twitter account can lay a claim for addition. Example- NationalHSFB.com is run by a high school football promoter that has received a lot of attention recently (via subtweeting its poll every time MaxPreps released one of theirs), particularly with this poll's inclusion in the MaxPreps 2022 poll of polls. Yet it's a poll of one and by a someone who has a financial stake in the outcome of polls in addition to not being a media organization. Stadium Talk is another new website releasing polls with dubious authority.

The idea behind breaking out the selectors is to help quantify the unanimity of a "national champion". But if any poll can come along and claim equal footing with a USA Today or MaxPreps, then the larger meaning would be lost and the page will be more difficult to maintain (not to mention the false equivalence held). The advent of NIL and "national teams" like IMG and St. Frances have only added more attention to a "national championship" that will likely increase in the coming years.

Separate note- rumor has it that ESPN is going to start doing prep polls again in 2023. Obviously that one should qualify.

Another qualification worth adding- rankings should have a reference to a webpage, outside of social media or message boards.

Elsliderino (talk) 16:20, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Would also like to stress that this page is quite possibly the most comprehensive on the subject. With no central governing body, it may have a sizable impact in proportion to NIL and dollars allocated. Elsliderino (talk) 16:46, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

aforementioned promoter found the site https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=High_School_Football_National_Championship&diff=1156658468&oldid=1153211209 Elsliderino (talk) 23:26, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

This article should follow the approach taken at College football national championships in NCAA Division I FBS, which is based on the wikipedia principle of WP:NPOV.

• Compilation of selectors by governing bodies, such as the NCAA in their records book.
• Prominence given to the most widely noted and respected selectors per their WP:DUE weight. (For College, the AP Poll and Coaches Poll deserve even their own section.)
• Claims by schools themselves and the selectors used to make those claims. News coverage of the schools basing their claims on those selections.
• Coverage of other selectors based on WP:INDEPENDENT coverage in third-party sources.

Twitter polls and new websites shouldn't be added unless they receive 3rd-part coverage from independent news sources.

PK-WIKI (talk) 04:27, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Selector Active Year Ranges

I believe some of the "Current Selector Since" years to be incorrect.

Maxpreps

This article lists MaxPreps/CBS Sports as a "Selector Since" 2006. The following archive.org sources shows that MaxPreps was posting national rankings as early as 2004. However, from 2004 through 2008, the MaxPreps rankings were simply just the Calpreps/Freeman ratings:

- 2004 and 2004

- 2005

- 2006

- 2007

- 2008

It wasn't until 2009 that the first MaxPreps Xcellent 25 expert/opinion poll was posted:

If you want to have MaxPreps doubling as the same Selector as Calpreps/Freeman then the year and tables should be adjusted to include through 2004. However, it seems like it would be better to treat MaxPreps as a unique Selector starting in 2009.

Massey

This article lists Massey as a "Selector Since" 2010. The Massey ratings were first published online at highschoolsports.net starting in 2008 (which was the domain previously used by USAToday High School Sports).

- 2008

- 2009

Massey has recently updated his HSFB ratings archive to include years prior to the first publication of his HSFB ratings mentioned above, going back to 1980. However, I have confirmed via email with Mr. Massey, that 2008 was the first year that his computer ratings were published by highschoolsports.net/USAToday. This touches on the subject of whether or not historical or recalculated computer ratings should be used as references in this article, which I believe deserves its own section for discussion. Prepgridironfan (talk) 23:35, 21 December 2023 (UTC)