Talk:Hi-hat

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Percussion High‑importance

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Origin of name

THe hi in hi-hat is fairly obvious I think, but why are the cymbals referred to as a 'hat'. The only hat I know of looking like this is the Chinese coolies hat. Is that where it comes from?--Light current 16:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That's possible. Back in the the early 20th century they were called "snow shoes" and "low boys."--Atticus2020 08:14, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

They were also known as the hi sock (which can be seen in the book 4-way coordination for example). There's also the phrase "don't give me the high hat" which may have been popular in the early 20th century (one character in the Coen Brother's gangster movie "Miller's Crossing" says it a bunch of times). Egmetcalfe (talk) 16:36, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It was preceded by the low sock which was two cymbals beaten together via a foot pedal. Interestingly, this mechanism (and the modern hi-hat) beats the cymbals in exactly the way children tend to play toy clash cymbals, which is exactly the way percussionists do not play them.

The low sock was played only by the pedal, it wasn't possible or intended to reach it with the sticks. The change from low to hi was to allow it to be played with the sticks too. And the rest, as they say, is history. Andrewa (talk) 00:07, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody answered the question. The "hi" part is obvious, but why is it called a "hat"?77Mike77 (talk) 15:36, 11 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

According to Matt Brennan (Kick it! Social origin of the drum kit), the terms low boy and hi hat might have been introduced simultaneously by Walberg. --158.37.155.71 (talk) 09:22, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Chick?

I see the term "chick" used three times in the article, but can't seem to find the definition of the term. "chick drumming" on Google just turns up with some videos of females playing the drums. Clarification please? Poiuyt Man ^talk 15:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It means the sound of closing the hats with your foot eg on the 2 and 4 in a jazz pattern Egmetcalfe (talk) 16:41, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. Andrewa (talk) 00:02, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

krupa

That Was Gene krupa who invented hi hat stand? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.25.126.159 (talk) 04:50, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So I've always believed. But a citation would be good. Andrewa (talk) 20:24, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Singular or plural

I've reverted an undiscussed edit [1] that may even be tongue in cheek.

There is no error. We are talking about the pair as two separate cymbals. If the singular is used, we need to ask what's it similar to?, while the plural makes it clear that what is being discussed is whether the two cymbals are similar to each other.

The treatment of pairs in English is complex. We say the pants are red not the pants is red, but we're taling about a single pair of pants. The grammar may not be the best, but the edit I've reversed made it worse, not better. Andrewa (talk) 10:33, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Max Roach

This recent edit reversed the configuration of this so far unverified (either way) claim, from 15" bottom and 14" top, to 15" top and 14" bottom.

At the risk of WP:OR, the main photo at the Max Roach article shows him with possibly a larger bottom than top, it's not clear, but it's certainly not a larger top. All other photos I've yet found, and all of the many YouTube videos I've found of him soloing on hi-hat, are either unclear or show two cymbals of the same size. Andrewa (talk) 17:47, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Max used a larger bottom cymbal (possibly 15" since the standard size was 14"). Evidence of this can be seen on the Max Roach "Live at Blues alley, 1981" video. Further evidence on the Max & Dizzy in Paris in 1989. I do not know when Max first used this configuration , but I saw Kenny Clarke using the same in the late 60s/early 70s in Paris(France). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raquinus (talk • contribs) 16:41, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A citation would be good. Andrewa (talk) 17:47, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How come no one is mentioning Papa Joe Jones? I wouldn't say it without proof on the main page but word is papa joe invented the hi hat. Gene Krupa? Please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.168.61.92 (talk) 06:26, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Assume you mean Jo Jones, perhaps we need a redirect from Papa Joe Jones (currently a redlink), there's already a link from the DAB at Joe Jones.

Word is that Zildjian have a secret alloy (according to many of their catalogs, but that hasn't been possible for a century and a half), that solid body twelve string guitars don't exist (according to most country town music shops in which I've asked, it became a touring joke, as I own one and have played several others), that my fretless ABG "clearly has frets" ([2] but I think I would have noticed them sometime in the twenty years I played it... yes it did have inlays that look a bit like frets in the photo)... a ref would be good. Where did you hear this word? Andrewa (talk) 03:42, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Number 5 7 21:34, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi-hat (instrument) → Hi-hat – Requesting revert of undiscussed move. The drum kit component is the primary meaning. Andrewa (talk) 00:43, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The disambig page is High hat. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 07:40, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, that's why this doesn't need to be a multi-move. The target is a redir to the DAB, and its talk page is also a redir, neither of them with significant history in terms of any need to preserve it, but with enough history that it needs an admin to perform the move. Andrewa (talk) 10:15, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Comment/question: @Andrewa: Would you also consider this article as the primary topic for the term High hat, a plausible misspelling that is currently a disambiguation page? Would you also consider all redirects of alternate spellings that currently redirect towards the disambiguation page (such as Hihat, Hi hat, and Hi-Hats plausible misspellings/plural forms of the subject of the instrument article? (I'm honestly ~~neutral~~ (Changed to support; see below.) on this revert: I performed the bold move of this article from Hi-hat to Hi-hat (instrument), but did so due to the amount of other terms on the disambiguation page High hat.) Steel1943 (talk) 01:04, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The burden of proof for an undiscussed move should be on the person who made the move, not the person who wants to revert it. This could have been speedy-processed as a technical request at Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests#Requests to revert undiscussed moves. —BarrelProof (talk) 01:10, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@BarrelProof: See above: my rationale is already there, and it's obviously not a strong rationale. Thus why I'm ~~neutral~~ (Changed to support; see below.) on the revert. Steel1943 (talk) 01:14, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, and I did consider following WP:BRD as you suggest, but formed the opinion that it was better to jump straight to an RM, as I think I was entitled to do. See User:Andrewa/Andrew's principle. Andrewa (talk) 01:25, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support per below. In fact, in all honesty, I thought it was a bit odd that this subject was grouped together with other "hi-hat" and "high hat" terms on a disambiguation page when it's basically the obvious primary topic for its spelling. Steel1943 (talk) 01:43, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. bd2412 T 17:38, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support return to Hi-hat per nom. Sardanaphalus (talk) 11:22, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy support per WP:MINORDETAILS Red Slash 02:56, 18 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments:

A quick Google [3] shows that, while there are other uses, the overwhelming majority refer to the drum kit component, so on grounds of usage this is the primary topic.

A look at the DAB to which the target currently redirects shows nothing nearly so notable as the percussion instrument, so on grounds of enduring cultural significance this is also the primary topic. Andrewa (talk) 00:51, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Plausible mispellings

Steel1943 asks above Would you also consider this article as the primary topic for the term High hat, a plausible misspelling that is currently a disambiguation page?

I don't think it's a relevant question to this RM. The question is simply what if anything is the primary topic of hi-hat. We accept all sorts of trivial differences as valid disambiguators, far too many IMHO, but that's another issue. And the difference between high and hi is relatively large compared to some that are accepted.

But the redirects hi hat and hi-hats should IMO point to this article rather than the DAB. Hi-hats in particular seems to have no other likely meaning, and on handwritten music scores the normal term in my experience is just hats. That's a very good point. Andrewa (talk) 01:19, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Andrewa: Fair enough. At this point, as I had sort addressed in my statement above, I believe that the "High hat" and "hi hat" terms should be on separate disambiguation pages. Also, at this point, I'm going to request your revert myself on WP:RMTR. Steel1943 (talk) 01:23, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Andrewa: I have now requested the revert. Steel1943 (talk) 01:28, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

OK, but I would have preferred just to let this one run its course, it wouldn't have been a hard one to close, particularly if you and BarrelProof had just voted to support the move. But that horse has bolted, and the whole thing is now very messy indeed, and I can't see why it needed to be. Andrewa (talk) 01:37, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Andrewa: I'll respect that wish. I'll withdraw the WP:RMTR revert request, let this discussion run its course, and give your move request a "support" vote. Steel1943 (talk) 01:39, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support as per nom and respect to Steel1943 for changing view. Other types of Hi-hat are a type of fixed tripod used in photography and an unexplained name of a choreographer. It is speculation to wonder which type of Hi-hat she was named after but the instrument in drumming seems to be primary topic. Gregkaye ✍♪ 09:42, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That vote really should go into the survey section. Andrewa (talk) 10:17, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Charleston Machine, that was ...

... what this instrument was called by all drummers, before the term "Hi-Hat" became popular. 2003:C0:DF11:4300:98CF:E42B:6FCD:431 (talk) 20:12, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]