Talk:Hermann Stieve

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A fact from Hermann Stieve appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 11 November 2013 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that anatomist Hermann Stieve (pictured), the youngest physician ever appointed the head of a German medical faculty, liked to give lectures in an academic robe?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2013/November. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Hermann Stieve.

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File:HermannStieve.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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Problems with this article

This article reads like a machine translation.
It seems to me to paint Stieve in an unduly favourable light -- "found him not guilty on any account and thus urged the renown scientist Hermann Stieve", for example
The sentence "Stieve published his histologic and anatomic findings based on those studies which were, for many years later, found to be essential for understanding the function of the female reproductive system." "Essential" is a strong claim to make -- can we pin down a specific source for this, or remove it?
It refers to a "Institute for Anatomy of the Chariteé" (also "Anatomic Institute of the Chariteé") that seems only to be mentioned elsewhere on the web in the context of this article: possibly this is another machine translation artifact?

Update: no, this appears to be a real thing: the Center for Anatomy of the Charité

All of the above appears to have been introduced in a single edit (diff) by User:DocHu, an account which seems to have edited only on topics related to Hermann Stieve. (See http://toolserver.org/~luxo/contributions/contributions.php?user=DocHu&blocks=true ) -- Gigacephalus (talk) 08:09, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it was quickly edited due to reading this article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21086388 --Pjacobi (talk) 08:53, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, the edit was made on 2 February 2011. The BBC article today says "Stieve worked closely with the prison in Berlin where prisoners were executed." -- how "close" or otherwise this was is crucial to any record of Stieve's life. It's interesting that the previous revision used exactly the words ""When a woman of reproductive age was due to be executed, Stieve was informed, a date of execution was decided upon, and the prisoner told the scheduled date of her death," which is reported in the BBC article as a direct quote from Wiiliam Seidelman's paper in Dimensions: A Journal of Holocaust Studies. I'm not clear if the wording "a date of execution was decided upon" is evidence that Stieve was involved in the process of setting the date of death. but if he had been, it would be clear evidence of complicity. -- Gigacephalus (talk) 08:59, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Rewrite

I've just rewritten the article based on two sources: one by Seidelmen, another by Winkelmann and Schagen. The latter seem to have soundly refuted the former's claim, based on a third-hand report of a Stieve lecture 50 years earlier, that Stieve permitted rape. They have also concluded that Stieve didn't time the women's executions according to their menstrual cycles. If someone wants to go further into that controversy, by all means do so but please be sure anything you add is supported by sources that conform to these policies: WP:RS and WP:NPOV. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:44, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Adding this source here for later use

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/history/2013/11/nazi_anatomy_history_the_origins_of_conservatives_anti_abortion_claims_that.html Gamaliel (talk) 03:32, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I thought this should be reflected in the article, so I came here. I can see adding another graf or two based on this.

The German Wikipedia article on Stieve is also longer and appears to have more info, especially in the "Tätigkeit in der Zeit des Nationalsozialismus" (Activity under Nazis) section, such as his one refusal to accept a body (one of the perpetrators of the 20 July plot) and his apparent justification for his actions: "I myself have all the bodies that were transferred to the anatomy at the time of the Nazi reign of terror dissected, and have tried it, the collected findings for my scientific work and thus to benefit the to exploit humanity" (Google's translation of the quoted sentence at the beginning of the last graf). However, it's unsourced there (I'm surprised; the dewiki editors are generally fastidious about this (as you would stereotypically expect), even more than we are). Also, of the two sources on which that section mostly relies, the Bartsch piece is a dead link and the Schagen one is only available to readers with accounts at Humboldt's Institute for Historical Research.

There's also more under "Leben" about his earlier life that we could have, and sources that seem at least facially valid.

I'll see what I can do. Daniel Case (talk) 23:11, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Adding stories of victims an excellent idea

Adding the back-stories of the Nazi victims whose deaths Stieve exploited was an excellent idea. Adding their photographs emphasizes their humanity and heroism and contrasts this with Stieve's dehumanization of them as merely convenient outputs of the Nazi death machine. Kudos to those responsible for those edits, -- The Anome (talk) 14:10, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome, and thanks for the barnstar as well. And nice timing it is ... today is, as our featured article reflects, the 75th anniversary of Kristallnacht.

I started doing this after I read the Slate article, looked at what we had here, and realized it needed to be expanded. I actually thought along the same lines as you ... since some of the bodies he dissected were notable people, they should be mentioned. And since that gave me room in the text, I should put in the pictures as well. Mildred Fish's story I hadn't known about ... it should be made into a movie someday. Daniel Case (talk) 17:55, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Father

The current text names a "Robert Sieve" as his father. Is this really verified? I suspect it's been mixed up with his son Robert. Also, there was a history professor in München called Felix Stieve (1845–1898), more plausible to be the correct father although I cannot verify this. /Urbourbo (talk) 14:34, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That part is more or less a translation from the German article. The source cited there is a book in that language by Ernst Klee, Auschwitz, die NS-Medizin und ihre Opfer, which cannot be previewed on Google Books so I can't verify it. Daniel Case (talk) 05:23, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Now, a user on German Wikipedia found a source confirming Felix as the father. ~~I'll edit here.~~ Apparently already changed here. /Urbourbo (talk) 09:29, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I formatted the source properly, and decided to include some of the obit's defense of the "accusations" against Stieve as well. I will also have to remove the links to the svwiki articles since we can't use them as sources (using their sources, however, is different). The Bavarian Academy's obit confirms Felix as his father; however, I can't find any mention of Friedrich in it. Am I missing something? Do we have another source we could use? Daniel Case (talk) 03:38, 9 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.slate.com/articles/life/history/2013/11/nazi_anatomy_history_the_origins_of_conservatives_anti_abortion_claims_that.html

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