Talk:Hermann Schleinhege/Archive 1
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| Archive 1 |
Notability
Does not meet WP:SOLDIER & sig RS coverage not found link.
Victories achieved on the Eastern Front, where the Luftwaffe was operating against poorly trained pilots operating inferior aircraft, so a high number of claims is not remarkable.
No de.wiki article exists. Please also see a note at MilHist Talk Archives for background behind the redirect. In summary, per the outcome of the discussion at Notability:People on notability of Knight's Cross recipients: permalink, certain recipients were deemed non notable and WP:SOLDIER has been modified accordingly: diff. The articles of these recipients are being redirected to alphabetical lists. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:45, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
Article restored
I responded here: Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(people)#Current_consensus. K.e.coffman (talk) 19:49, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
Redirect
Restoring the redirect. Successful completion of missions (sorties flown, # of enemy aircraft shot down, etc) is not part of SOLDIER. A MilHist RfC on this topic has failed to gain consensus in May of 2017:
For a relevant AfD on a fighter aces and Knight's Cross recipient, please see:
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fritz Lüddecke, which closed as "Delete" in September 2017.
K.e.coffman (talk) 20:37, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
Deletion
it is bitterly disappointing how there still seems this dire need to delete articles in Military History. Is Wikipedia running out of space? Does this article make the Military History group seem profligate or wasteful? Why? This pilot scored more than any other Allied pilot in history, yet because his commanders didn't hand out awards like lollies he is deemed a lesser person of no interest . Why cannot you look at the bigger picture, that the Luftwaffe policy was to keep their top pilots on the front line rather cycle back to desk jobs. Given the number of other individuals that are given space on Wikipedia for the most inane or trite reasons, I find it immensely disappointing that these Luftwaffe pilots are treated with such disdain. Move on and get past the Nazi ideology that drove these young men into extreme circumstances and just consider the cold, hard facts of their achievements across and in respect of the WHOLE of military aviation history, not just amongst their own stratospheric levels of victories of the WW2 Jagdwaffe. Otherwise, I presume you are suggesting the answer instead is to go to more worthy websites to get information on the lesser lights of the Luftwaffe Philby NZ (talk) 03:37, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
- I’m sorry you feel this way, but we have the general notability guidelines for a reason, so that Wikipedia doesn’t become an indiscriminate collection of information. I’m just not seeing the significant coverage in multiple reliable sources necessary to meet the GNG. If you think there are reliable sources on this chap that help with his notability, I suggest you locate them and use them to expand the article. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:54, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
- I won't get the time before the Deletion deadline passes in 7 days time, for this or the other pilots getting phased out. It seems many other Wiki-categories don't run to the notability guidelines as diligently as the Military History team chooses to. The big advantage that Wikipedia has over printed encyclopedias is that it is NOT constrained by space as physical books are. So it can accomodate the huge breadth and depth of human knowledge rather than just skimming over the usual top-100 Greatest Hits that books have to. It has the luxury of being able to accomodate the specialist as well as the generalist. I just feel that, as a permanent action, this is a retrograde step. But perhaps I'm alone feeling this way hence why i'm no longer active with the group Philby NZ (talk) 06:59, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
- Just as an aside, I've counted up the number of links on List of World War II aces from the United States as just over 200, compared to the near 380ish on German World War II flying aces list. Can you honestly say that nearly all of those rose to high rank and/or had the premier levels of military awards to also warrant a Wiki-article. Their victory talllies certainly pale in comparison to the Jagdwaffe day and night-fighter pilots. Philby NZ (talk) 07:29, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
- There are massive differences between the two, some of which are mentioned in threads above, but German scores on the Eastern Front, particularly early on, are not comparable to victories on the Western Front against far better aircraft and pilots. And in any case, there are lists with the basic information of rank, name and number of aerial victories of all these men. Also, being an ace isn’t considered presumptively notable under current guidance. It has been discussed before, and there just isn’t consensus for it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:50, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
- With respect, if you read the article you'll see that Schleinhege did not fly in the "easy years" of Barbarossa, but in the last years of the war against higher quality Soviet pilots and was part of the handful of squadrons covering the Kurland pocket against easily 10:1 odds. Relatively and in contrast, the late-war Allied pilots had a far easier time of it. He was not just an ace with five victories, he had 97 confirmed victories to give some proper perspective. He survived those heavy odds and lived to be 98 Philby NZ (talk) 10:13, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
- Good on him, but on what basis is he notable? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:19, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
- With respect, if you read the article you'll see that Schleinhege did not fly in the "easy years" of Barbarossa, but in the last years of the war against higher quality Soviet pilots and was part of the handful of squadrons covering the Kurland pocket against easily 10:1 odds. Relatively and in contrast, the late-war Allied pilots had a far easier time of it. He was not just an ace with five victories, he had 97 confirmed victories to give some proper perspective. He survived those heavy odds and lived to be 98 Philby NZ (talk) 10:13, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
- There are massive differences between the two, some of which are mentioned in threads above, but German scores on the Eastern Front, particularly early on, are not comparable to victories on the Western Front against far better aircraft and pilots. And in any case, there are lists with the basic information of rank, name and number of aerial victories of all these men. Also, being an ace isn’t considered presumptively notable under current guidance. It has been discussed before, and there just isn’t consensus for it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:50, 5 January 2021 (UTC)