Talk:Hermann Graf

Community reassessment

Hermann Graf

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: Kept Alot of discourse here, but very little of it related to the good article criteria. Reliability of a source is relative to what it is sourcing (and not everything needs a source). Most of the sources deemed unreliable were removed during the review anyway. There is nothing undue about the tables. A Good Article is not necessarily everbody's interpretation of a good article, and I am confident that this meets Wikipedias definition. AIRcorn (talk) 04:34, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Nomination

Much of the subject's war-time career is cited to:

• Jochim, Berthold K (1998). Oberst Hermann Graf: 200 Luftsiege in 13 Monaten Ein Jagdfliegerleben. Rastatt, Germany: VPM Verlagsunion Pabel Moewig. ISBN 3-8118-1455-9.

Berthold K. Jochim is a pen name of Franz Kurowski, a known fabulist and apologist for the German war effort of 1939–45. By his own admission, he reserved his own name for "more serious work" and used his pseudonyms for largely semi-fictional accounts. correction follows: was the founder and long-term editor of the pulp series Der Landser. Specific to the book in question, an editor, who is familiar with the source, noted: The book is actually written by Franz Kurowski (under a different name). I own the 1998 version and I think it more or less a piece of s***. Quoted from: [1]. I was not surprised at this assessment as the source was issued by Pabel Moewig, the publisher behind Der Landser.

In my opinion, the article fails several GA criteria:

• Criterion 2 -- Verifiable: all in-line citations are from reliable sources
• Criterion 3 -- Broad in its coverage: it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail
• Criterion 4 -- Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each

I was unable to locate alternate sources on the subject that are reliable and neutral and provide the same level of detail. I don't believe it's possible to improve the article through normal editing for it to retain GA status and remain broad in coverage.

I'm thus nominating the article for community reassessment. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:34, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

Discussion

I have the Bergstrom, Antipov & Sundin book and am gradually working through it verifying the details. I am positive a lot of the facts cited can also be referenced out of that volume. Though it looks like a fair portion of the wiki-article's early paragraphs may need to be rewritten a little to avoid claims of direct copying from the B/A/S book Philby NZ (talk) 22:49, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

Interesting. How close is it to B/A/S book? K.e.coffman (talk) 23:25, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

@User:Ian Rose Hi, per your revert, is there some middle ground? This seems a little overly wordy to say he did flight training between x and y dates that would cover the the things you would expect a pilot to do? Cinderella157 (talk) 12:58, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm struggling to understand the nom's claim that "much of the subject's war-time career is cited to Jochim" when only 9 of the 38 wartime sources cite Jochim and that period only covers a year when he fought against the Soviet Union. Even if we are really convinced that everything that Jochim says has been made up, it would still seem more constructive to seek alternative sources for that short period, rather than downgrading the whole article. Bermicourt (talk) 19:05, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

K.e. coffman, if Kurowski and Jochim are the same person, then what's up with the different German wikipedia entries, which say that Kurowski died in 2011 and Jochim died in 2002? Kges1901 (talk) 20:10, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

I've now updated with reference additions & details from Bergstrom, Antipov & Sundin for his early life and the 1939-1940 years of the war. I've taken out a bit of text which adds standard detail that can be found linking to other relevant articles. I've also reworded a few phrases which may be construed as overly emotive and/or too close to the original Bergstrom et al text. Comments welcome if you think these are improvements to the article or in fact denigrate the Good Article status that it holds now (which I certainly don't want to do). I'll be getting onto the Russian Front part of his career next from the same source. Philby NZ (talk) 21:04, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

• I'm rereading this article after having edited it for grammar yonks ago. It seems to me, as to Bermicourt (talk · contribs) that the citations to are minimal in the larger scheme of the article. Second, these are citations to fact, not to opinion. It is not Jochim's opinion that Graf shot down this plane or that plane, but his facts. Philby NZ (talk · contribs) seems to have confirmed the veracity of much of Jochim's citations vis a vis Bergstrom in the earlier sections. I agree with changes that reduce some of the "emotive" sections.
• relating to Kges1901 (talk · contribs)'s question, why are there two completely different biographies in the German wikipedia for Kurowski and Jochim? These are not just slightly different, but radically different, from birth to death. And just if they are one and the same man, does this mean that the work he wrote as one is superior to the work he did as another, or that either or both should be discarded simply because he was a fabulist? I'd like to know who claims he was a fabulist, and why it should be assumed that anything he writes about Nazis generally and Graf particularly should be discarded for this reason?
• Generally, on the subject of pen names: anyone who reads Napoleonic war era stuff probably knows that Digby Smith also wrote as Otto von Pivka. He chose to use a pen name (he claims) because he was writing while he was in the military. I don't know why Kurowski possibly used a pen name, and I'd certainly say that Smith's work as himself is far superior to his work as Pivka. That said, the works he wrote under the pen name are not exactly chopped liver, though. auntieruth (talk) 22:17, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman: This is really a serious discrepancy – I've done some googling and found this Kurowski German Digital Library Catalog entry, which states that Kurowski died on 28 May 2011 in Dortmund. Note that Jochim is not listed here as one of Kurowski's pseudonyms. Meanwhile, the German wiki article on Jochim references an August 2004 journal article about "Landser-Pulp" in Jugend Medien Schutz-Report (apparently a German publication on the protection of youth from bad influences). The title of the article as used in the German wiki reference says that Jochim lived from 1921 to 2002. On page 8 of a later issue of the same journal, the author of the 2004 article repeats the information that Jochim died in 2002. So it seems clear that Jochim and Kurowski are two completely different people. Kges1901 (talk) 22:53, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

• Comment—regarding sources, the state information system of Baden-Württemberg website leobw names the following sources:

• Gerhard von Seemen, Die Ritterkreuzträger 1939-1945. Bad Nauheim 1955
• Fritz Walter, Elf rote Jäger. 1957; Die Roten Jäger. Ein Schicksalsbericht deutscher Nationalspieler aus dem letzten Kriege. Broschüre, Hg. Ernst Heuner, o. J.
• Oberst Hermann Graf. 200 Luftsiege in 13 Monaten. Ein Jagdfliegerleben nacherzählt von Berthold K. Joachim. 1975, 5. Aufl. 1985
• Günter Fraschka, Mit Schwertern und Brillanten. Die Träger der höchsten deutschen Tapferkeitsauszeichnung, darin S. 65-76: „Oberst Hermann Graf: Fliegen, Kämpfen, Fußballspielen.“ Wiesbaden- München (7. Aufl. 1977)
• Berichte des Oberkommandos der Wehrmacht 1939-1945. Bd. 3. München (1988)

Also it is not a valid reason to say "an editor, who is familiar with the source, noted: I own the 1998 version and I think it more or less a piece of s***."

I have a wider concern that K.E. Coffman's very extensive work on Germany during the Second World war seems to me to lack objectivity and be focussed on portraying Germans and Germany in an excessively negative light; far worse than is warranted by the historical evidence. Nazism was an evil, but we should tell it like it is, neither exaggerating nor playing it down. --Bermicourt (talk) 10:31, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

The editor who stated that Jochim's book was s*** was now-retired User:MisterBee1966, who wrote most of the World War II German military biography articles. MisterBee does come back occasionally and I've emailed him on this issue so that he may clarify whether the entire book (including unit history) was s*** or just its conclusions. Kges1901 (talk) 11:31, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Misterbee has responded. Here's his email: "Regarding the book in question, I believe the book to be reasonably accurate regarding facts such as when where and how. I consider the book by Bergström to be superior and of higher quality. But this is just my amature opinion." Kges1901 (talk) 11:43, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

• Request for clarification from nominator: could you pls provide some evidence that Jochim was a pen name of Kurowski? As it stands this appears to be the basis for the assertion that the referencing used here is unreliable and that it therefore does not meet the GA criteria; however, as several editors have pointed out above it seems likely (based on De Wikipedia at least) that they were actually two different authors altogether. If this assertion was in error then is there an issue here with the referencing at all? I'm assuming from the nomination statement that the implied criticism of the work remains regardless of who the author actually was given the publisher's alleged reputation, is that correct? As such is there any published criticism available on Jochim's unreliability specifically that you could provide a reference to? Unless there is something which can verify these concerns I don't think the case has been made here really. At any rate I note that another editor has already re-worked the article to reduce its reliance on Jochim anyway. Anotherclown (talk) 11:23, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

• furthermore, Jochim is not listed among Kurowski's pen names in the article on him (although it is listed in the box), much of which was edited by K.e.coffman (talk · contribs). After reading that article, I'm inclined to tag it for POV problems, because of its use of loaded words ("highly exaggerated numbers", for example) . Second, such phrases as "nationalist battle painting" are unclear, -- how is this different from de:Hugo Ungewitter, Carl Röchling, Richard Knötel, for example? And how is this different from the images of, for example, the Confederate painter, Conrad Wise Chapman? auntieruth (talk) 13:46, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

Clarification re: nomination

• @Anotherclown and Kges1901: Sorry about the confusion; it was my fault. I made the corrections above [2], and in the Kurowski article. I saw MisterBee's comment (The book is actually written by Franz Kurowski (under a different name)) and had assumed it was a pseudonym. I'm curious as to how MB came to the conclusion that Kurowski wrote the book. It's not impossible that the latter had indeed done so. Kurowski had written for Der Landser' himself, both under his name and various pseudonyms, while Jochim was the founder and long-term editor of the series.

In any case, a source from the Der Landser founder / editor cannot be presumed to be reliable. Quoting from the linked article, Der Landser was described by Der Spiegel as "the expert journal for the whitewashing of the Wehrmacht" ("Fachorgan für die Verklärung der Wehrmacht"). K.e.coffman (talk) 01:51, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying this. Given that original objection to the source is no longer an issue and that the article has been reworked quite a bit since this nomination is there anything specifically in the information still referenced to Jochim that you believe is unreliable? Taking what you say about Der Landser on good faith I can see how other books from the publisher and editor associated with it would be worthy of closer scrutiny; however, I don't think that automatically means that we assume they are not reliable either and therefore cannot be used, just that we need to be careful when doing so as they might not be reliable (in the absence of any authoritative criticism of the source in question that is). If you can point to something specific it might be able to be addressed. Anotherclown (talk) 10:17, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying the issue. MB has elaborated on his assessment of Jochim from 2012 in a response to the email I sent him: regarding the book in question, I believe the book to be reasonably accurate regarding facts such as when where and how. I consider the book by Bergström to be superior and of higher quality. But this is just my amature opinion. Currently, Jochim is only used to cite facts and not opinions in the article. But there's no reason why the citations shouldn't be replaced with references to Bergström, and when Philby NZ finishes doing that, I think that this GAR should be closed since Jochim was the main issue with the article according to K.e. coffman's original rationale.Kges1901 (talk) 11:01, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Given recent changes which have now further reduced the article's reliance on Jochim I propose removing the "unreliable" sources tag. Although the source in question is still used it does seem to me to now be used to state facts only, whilst in many instances it has also been used in concert with other sources which I presume are considered reliable (at least no objection has been raised to them). Are there any comments on this proposal? Thanks. Anotherclown (talk) 12:03, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

• I'm okay with removing the "unreliable sources" tag and leaving the status of the article as is. auntieruth (talk) 17:09, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
• I also support Anotherclown's proposal. Jochim is now used in just 7 references - less than 1% of the 90 citations in the article. Kges1901 (talk) 17:19, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

”Fact” vs “opinion”; Discussion of other sources

Thanks for the continued discussion. I would object to the removal of the tag. Any source that is affiliated with Der Landser does not belong in a military history article, IMO, unless there's a very good reason to include it. Separately, re: “facts” vs “opinions” -- if said facts are only to be found in unreliable sources, should they be given any weight? Are numbers being cited, for example, facts or products of war-time propaganda? (For a related discussion, please see: Talk:Helmut Wick#Propaganda origins).

More on sources being used in the article: Bergstöm appears to be a fairly obscure author, despite having published 70 works in 146 publications, per Wordcat. His books are not available via my library system, except for the Barbarossa one. Outside of Barbarossa, I was not able to find reviews of his works. Here’s a book by Bergstöm on another German ace [3]; the web site includes the following description:

Hans-Ekkehard Bob: Ace Profiles - The Men and Their Aircraft

Acclaimed aviation historian Christer Bergstöm has drawn upon personal recollections and records to produce this in-depth and graphic account of the wartime experiences of one the Luftwaffe’s leading Jagdflieger. The text is enhanced by rare photographs taken from Hans-Ekkehard Bob’s own collection as well as highly detailed colour artwork by leading aviation artist, Claes Sundin. 

At the last moment, Bob pushed the stick forward and attempted to dive his Bf 109 to the left, and beneath the crippled bomber. But his manoeuvre was carried out a fraction of a second too late… Bob flashed beneath the bomber and, just as he did, he heard a crash and felt a terrible jolt. Looking back, he saw that his Bf 109 had lost its whole tail section, and he also saw that a part of the bomber’s starboard wing was missing.

Soft cover, 8.3" x 11.7", 72 pages, 77 rare b+w photographs, 11 beautiful colour artwork profiles.”

This does not read like historical scholarship or even popular history. This style of writing sounds closer to historical fiction or personal reminiscences.

The article also extensively uses these sources:

• John A. Weal – “98 works in 248 publications”, per Worldcat. He appears to have started as an illustrator and translator and then branched into writing. Here’s a sample title: Wings of the Luftwaffe : flying German aircraft of the Second World War, by Eric Brown; illustrated with cutaway and cockpit interior drawings by John Weal”. I’m unable to find reviews for his works. I would place him in an “amateur historian” category.
  • All Weal's works referenced in this article are published by Osprey, which specialises in works on fighter aces (among other things) -- I've used their books in many Allied ace articles, cross-checking their info with other secondary sources, and found them low-key in their language and reliable in their facts and figures. Evidently those editors reviewing sources in such articles that I've put up for GAN, ACR and FAC also consider them acceptable. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:24, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

• Ralf Schumann an author of a number of Knight’s Cross recipient profiles, including in extremist publishers such as VDM Heinz Nickel.

Regarding the level of detail, the article contains material that is either immaterial, undue or needs to be attributed due the nature of the claim. Some examples:

• German airmen of 9./JG 52 spent a couple of relaxing months in Bucharest, which was beyond the censorship and control of the Nazi regime in Berlin. Graf even managed to play football when a team of the Deutsche Luftwaffe played against Cyclope Bucharesti at the Bucharest Sport's Arena before thirty thousand spectators.

Were they engaged in any activities that would have been subject to the censorship and control of the Nazi regime? The article does not say. Graf “even managed” to play a game of football—so what?

• Graf helped Jewish families escape to Switzerland at a time when the "J" stamp in German Jews' passport had been demanded by Germany's neighboring countries. He took a great personal risk and came close to getting caught. Graf was assisted by Gruppenführer (Group Leader) Albert Keller of his local NSFK Glider Club (National Socialist Flyers Corps), who later covered up the bureaucratic traces that Graf had left.

This is fairly extraordinary statement. What is this being cited to?

• The entire section Hermann_Graf#Aerial_victory_credits strikes me as undue and indiscriminate. This list may belong in a book-length bio of the subject, but not in an encyclopedia entry. Aircraft are not capital ships to list all 200 of them in detail. Even if they were, this section reminds me of a “trophy room” and is non-neutral.

References

I’m curious what sources Bergstöm cites. Perhaps Philby NZ can shed some light on this, since he has the book on hand.

K.e.coffman (talk) 22:39, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Here are some reviews: Ardennes 1944: Hitler's Winter Offensive, [4], [5], [6]. I can email you copies of the reviews on questia if you want them. On aerial victory lists, they are a fairly standard part of flying ace articles – see the extensive lists of victories for non-German aces like Albert Ball, Mick Mannock, Gabby Gabreski, Alexander Pokryshkin, Ivan Kozhedub, etc. Kges1901 (talk) 23:13, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer; I just emailed you. Re: claims tables, I'd consider them undue in these other articles as well. Way too much detail for an encyclopedia entry, especially for the WWII aces, due to the industrialised nature of warfare. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:30, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Clearly not everyone agrees, as I've explained to you elsewhere. There are detailed claims tables in smaller bios than this in books on Allied aces. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:35, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Long day, busy at work, not going to get into this otherwise I'll likely boil over. I'll let others address these. The Bergstrom et al book lists >50 books in its bibliography, but like many books, they're not linked to specific passages. I'm trying to add context & background and show he's not just a 1-dimensional "killing machine grunt" stereotype nor be just a narrative of kills per day. Are we squeezed for space here?? Is this boring reading? Philby NZ (talk)

Responses to some of the nominator's points above:

• "re: “facts” vs “opinions” -- if said facts are only to be found in unreliable sources, should they be given any weight? Are numbers being cited, for example, facts or products of war-time propaganda?" This is fair to a point, although we have not determined that the source in question actually is "unreliable" that I can see. If the source is proven to be unreliable then I agree it should be given no weight at all. However, while I accept that you believe the source may be unreliable, that is all it is at this point. Unless there is some evidence to prove this assumption we need to move on. That said if there is specific information ("fact" or "opinion") that you believe is suspect potentially this could be addressed by qualifying the wording used in the article to make it clear that Wikipedia is reporting the details as provided by the source only etc.
• "Any source that is affiliated with Der Landser does not belong in a military history article, IMO, unless there's a very good reason to include it." That's fine, but that is really also only your opinion. So far your concern about it only seems to be due to its association with Der Landser, and as far as I can tell nothing definitive has been offered to prove that there is actually a problem here. Jochim is used sparingly (six times out of 105 citations) for my mind, and sometimes bundled with other sources. What specifically about the information it is currently used to cite do you believe is in error?
• "Bergstöm appears to be a fairly obscure author" - this also seems a matter of personal opinion, but honestly why would that be an issue even if it is true? Obscure doesn't mean it cannot be used as long as it meets the requirements of WP:RS. Is there a reason to believe it doesn't? If there are published reviews of his works that express concern about POV or accuracy then certainly lets consider them, but if not then I see no issue with the source being accepted on good faith unless proven otherwise.
• "John A. Weal – “98 works in 248 publications“, per Worldcat. He appears to have started as an illustrator and translator and then branched into writing". Ian's already responded here and I agree with him. I see no issue with using this source either.
• "Ralf Schumann an author of a number of Knight’s Cross recipient profiles, including in extremist publishers such as VDM Heinz Nickel". Are there reviews of his work which support your implied concern? Also what information cited to this source do you feel is wrong?
• "Regarding the level of detail, the article contains material that is either immaterial, undue or needs to be attributed due the nature of the claim." I agree there are areas where this article could be tightened so I have no issue with you re-writing the section you identified if you are concerned about it. I've also made a few changes in places previously due to similar concerns but feel this issue has mostly been addressed. That said I don't subscribe to the view that the scope of a biography should be limited to the subject's main claim to notability, as there does seem to be value in adding detail outside this which gives a reader a sense of who the person was. This then becomes a question of editorial judgment to be resolved through local consensus.
• "Graf helped Jewish families escape to Switzerland... This is fairly extraordinary statement. What is this being cited to?" - well the citation at the end of the paragraph is obviously to "Bergström, Antipov & Sundin 2003, p. 12" so I'm not really sure what the concern is. Is there a reason to assume that it is not accurate? If so pls elaborate so that it can be addressed.
• "The entire section Hermann_Graf#Aerial_victory_credits strikes me as undue and indiscriminate." This also seems like a question of editorial judgement as I am not aware of policy which addresses this specific matter (pls correct me if I'm wrong). I don't see it as undue or indiscrimate though and I don't see much support for this view to date. It does seem to be the case that many of our biographies on similar topics do treat this matter in this manner (i.e. a referenced table). This should be fairly easy to resolve through consensus. Are there any other views on the issue? Is there support for removing it for instance? Anotherclown (talk) 00:36, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

• I essentially agree with the points Anotherclown has made, most of this is unsupported opinion of one editor. I would add that I don't believe the victories tables are undue, he's an ace and details of his victories are directly relevant to his notability and his biography in general. Also the opinion that the scope of a biography should be limited to the subject's main claim to notability is an utterly fringe view, unsupported by long-standing consensus on biography articles on en WP. Examination of any random selection of FA biographies will make that clear. It is an area in which K.e.coffman should just drop the stick and accept the consensus. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:08, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

• Delist The book by Bergström et al. is advertised by Bergström himself as "a 312-page piece of microhistory". As far as I can see, however, Bergström et al. do not appeal to the methodology of microhistory, which aims at unveiling the complexities of structures, processes and human interaction by focusing on its local context. It simply seems to be a label put on a very traditional, but heavily detailed biography of yet another German ace. As far as I can see there are no reviews which could attest to its reliabilty. I may point out some obvious mistakes which raise doubts about its overall reliability.
  • The article states that In his teens, he was selected to join a group of talented young players trained by Sepp Herberger. According to de:Markwart Herzog's piece on football in the military, featured in Fussball zur Zeit des Nationalsozialismus, ed. by Markwart Herzog (Stuttgart 2008), p. 112 f., quoting Herberger and Graf himself, Graf was invited by Herberger to attend training courses in 1938 and 1939, respectively, to see how good he was. Herberger later wrote that Graf was good enough to be considered for the national team. Graf was in his teens until 1932, right? What about his broken thumb? Herberger became assistant to Otto Nerz in 1932 and head coach of the German national team in 1936.
  • a couple of relaxing months in Bucharest, which was beyond the censorship and control of the Nazi regime in Berlin. Graf even managed to play football when a team of the Deutsche Luftwaffe played against Cyclope Bucharesti at the Bucharest Sports Arena before thirty thousand spectators. What has the game in Bucharest to do with Nazi censorship? Graf and his team of Luftwaffe footballers played an opening game before the Romanian national team played against the German national team on 1 June 1941. His team played in support of the Nazi regime.
  • In May Graf was also able to organize a second soccer international, this time against a Romanian army team. For this, he called upon Sepp Herberger, now manager of the national team. Herberger arranged for several of the current national squad to play, including an international debut for the great Fritz Walter. With Graf in goal, it was Walter who scored a hattrick in the 3–2 win. That's even more mysterious. Graf himself organized a second soccer international? I do not think that Graf was in a position to organize any soccer internationals. He may have been able to organize friendly matches against other army teams, but those were not soccer internationals. Fritz Walter made his debut for the German national team on 14 July 1940. It was a game against Romania, and Walter scored three goals, but by German standards it wasn't a hattrick, Germany won by 9-3 and the game took place in Frankfurt.
• Even more striking is the strong POV employed to describe Graf and his "acchievements":
  • On 4 September 1942, he became the second pilot to reach his 150th victory, a Yakovlev Yak-1; coming just 6 days after Gordon Gollob achieved the historic milestone.[35] Many times he was lucky to get back to base uninjured and alive, with his aircraft routinely being shot up by enemy pilots or anti-aircraft fire. Easily the top-scoring ace of the Luftwaffe, he was now shooting down several planes each day. The three fighters he got on the 9th September took him to 172, for which he was awarded the Diamonds to the Knight's Cross (Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit Eichenlaub, Schwertern und Brillanten)[61] and soon promoted to Hauptmann (Captain). I will always be irritated by such a prose and a POV which considers the shooting down of a single aircraft a "historic milestone", while one of the largest and decisive battles of WW II is being fought on the ground at Stalingrad.
  • The next day tempered his joy when, despite shooting down two more aircraft, for the first time he lost his wingman. Uffz Johann Kalb had to bail out over the Volga River and was captured by Russian troops.[61] On the 17th he claimed three more victories but a 20mm Russian cannon-shell went through his canopy missing his head by inches.[63] Such near misses drove him harder[63] and on 23 September, a remarkable ten victories in three missions took him to 197.[63] It was virtually inevitable then that on 26 September, he became the first pilot in aviation history to claim 200 enemy aircraft shot down.[64][35] Now the toast of the Luftwaffe he was promoted to Major on 29 September. Forbidden by High Command from flying further combat operations[65][66], the whole of JG 52 gathered at Soldatskaja to congratulate him[67] before he flew back to Berlin a few days later.[65] "tampered his joy "? "drove him harder"? "Virtually inevitable"? The "toast of the Luftwaffe"? The whole JG52 "gathered to congratulate him"? That's a kind of romancing worthy of Der Landser, when Graf, or, rather more appropriate to this style of writing, our hero, seems to meet his destiny to become the first pilot to reach that magic score of kills, although, as we learned earlier: Many times he was lucky to get back to base uninjured and alive, with his aircraft routinely being shot up by enemy pilots or anti-aircraft fire. Btw, I don't think that the Germans fought against "Russian troops"
  • Another example: With German forces in retreat by this time, Graf did not have any opportunity for further air combat. Graf disobeyed General Hans Seidemann, who had ordered him and Erich Hartmann to fly to the British sector to avoid capture by the Russians when the rest of the wing surrendered to the Soviets. Together with his fellow pilots and ground personnel he marched through Bohemia toward Bavaria, where he surrendered his unit to the 90th US Infantry Division near Písek on 8 May 1945 and became a prisoner of war (POW). This features some classic stereotypes of the story of a true hero. It also makes me wonder about the story of Erich Hartmann's last kill as related by Wikipedia's GA on him. JG52 seems to have had no opportunity for further air combat and "marched" through Bohemia to surrender on 8 May 1945, but on the very same day Hartmann and a wingman managed to fly a reconnaissance mission and Hartmann shot down a Soviet plane "from a range of 200 ft (61 m)"?
  • Furthermore: Graf helped Jewish families escape to Switzerland at a time when the "J" stamp in German Jews' passport had been demanded by Germany's neighboring countries. Jewish passports were stamped with a "J" after a treaty with Switzerland was struck in October 1938. So, when exactly did Graf provide his help and of what kind? When did he join the Luftwaffe fulltime?
• I consider most of the details to be unnecessary and both the writing and the POV it conveys are anything but "neutral".
• he's an ace and details of his victories are directly relevant to his notability and his biography in general. Are they? Maybe the somewhat strange analogy to a football player, a striker, illuminates this question: So you would suggest that the article on, say, Fritz Walter should feature a table listing every single goal he scored as a professional, against whom and at what minute during the game? Is that how you imagine encyclopedic information? I consider that to be information for the football enthusiast as Graf's list of kills appeals to the military enthusiast. It's more appropriate for a database than for a serious biographical article of military history.

have you seen the Wiki-articles on Gary Lineker or Diego Maradona or the Category "Career achievements of association football players" (almost 50 player's lists). Given that this is the combat-record of the 9th-highest scoring fighter pilot ever, yes, I do consider it relevant Philby NZ (talk) 08:09, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

• None of the literature listed in the bibliography is up to historiographical standards. Schumann's piece, for example, is one that would be sold at certain newspaper stands. It is written for a certain audience. No academic historian would use that kind of literature for a biographical sketch of Hermann Graf. The one that would be considered to be RS by good faith, the article by Heinrich Bücheler in Baden-Württembergische Biographien 2, pp. 166-167, claims that Graf shot down 252 aircraft and joined the Nationalkomitee Freies Deutschland during captivity.

it doesn't bode well as an RS source if Bücheler doesn't even get Graf's Total Victories statistic correct when 212 is accepted by historians as correct (or as close as we will ever know) c.f. List of World War II flying aces

• Some of the external links feature online resources like feldgrau.com that have been blacklisted in the German Wikipedia for their notorious unreliability and strong POV. The disclaimer Although they often quote primary sources and with abundant detail from published material, be aware that by their on-line nature these websites are considered unreliable highlights how these links contradict WP:ELNO#2, although it is not by their online nature, that these sites are considered unreliable, but by the nature of the primary sources and the published material they quote. It's largely unverifiable research. Moreover, due to the standards currently employed by the MilHist project when evaluating the comprehensiveness of FA articles, I doubt that there are any websites which qualify as unique resources "beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article" (WP:ELNO#1). Hermann Graf's war awards & command details as well as his victory claims sorted chronologically is exactly the kind of information which has been described as "directly relevant to his notability and his biography in general". --Assayer (talk) 10:04, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

• On microhistory, the wikipedia article on microhistory says that microhistory could be an investigation of an individual. An in-depth biography of two German aces that concentrates on them seems to be microhistory. Just because Bergstrom doesn't conform to one definition of microhistory doesn't mean that the book is inherently unreliable.
• As for reviews, they are listed on Bergstrom's website, including reviews by historians and authors Håkan Gustavsson and Don Caldwell. It is generally hard to find journal reviews of military history books that aren't on a broad topic. For example, there are journal reviews of Bergstrom's books on larger topics like the battles in the Ardennes in 1944 or the air war on the Eastern front. Kges1901 (talk) 11:14, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
• I have also changed the uses of "Russian" to "Soviet" in the article since that was apparently needed for greater accuracy (although most accounts of the war that aren't from the Soviet perspective seem to use "Russian" and "Soviet" interchangeably, even Western Allied accounts) Kges1901 (talk) 11:14, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

By reviews I mean third-party reviews published in respected historical journals by people with some professional background in the field of historiography, instead of reviews by "WWII aviation and Luftwaffe enthusiast"s, customer reviews taken from amazon.com, remarks by friends in e-mails and the like. "Aviation historians" seem to be a class of their own. What they lack in historiographical training, they make up for in enthusiasm for their topic. Don Caldwell was a chemist with Dow Chemical. Gustavsson's credentials are described by his own publisher, Casemate, as being "in contact with numerous veterans, and their families." If their books are not reviewed by peer-reviewed journals, it is not just because their topic is not broad enough. It's because of their credentials and approach. These books are written for the enthusiasts, not to contribute to the field of serious historiography. And you should take a closer look at the "journals" that publish reviews of books by Bergström like the New York Journal of Books, a commercial venue for book reviews. (Their WP page is quite amazing, btw, in that it is sourced almost exclusively to biased sources, namely themselves.)--Assayer (talk) 23:56, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

As usual, you are setting far too high a bar for sources. You are clearly in the minority. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:00, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree with PM67 here. A Wikipedia article is not someone's PhD thesis (and this is only a GA/A class article at any rate). Statements like "there are no reviews which could attest to its reliabilty" imply that sources need to be proven to be reliable by a review in order to be used, yet I'm not aware of any policy that imposes such a burden of proof. Certainly WP:RS has criteria, yet where these are meet I'd say proof would need to be provided that said sources are in-fact un-reliable for them to not be used. Anotherclown (talk) 05:54, 13 August 2017 (UTC)