Talk:Henry John Carter

HM Indian Service

I think this probably means British Indian Army. I've found this "No. 22625". The London Gazette. 13 May 1862. {{cite magazine}}: Check date values in: |date= (help) where within the Bombay Army (the HEIC had maintained three separate armies, based on the presidencies of Madras, Bombay and Bengal, the Crown maintained this arrangement for a while, before they were merged into a single establishment), Surgeon Henry John Carter is promoted to Surgeon-Major (second page of range, top of second column). David Underdown (talk) 20:14, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Ref Desk question here (unless you came here from there?). Also here (must stop spreading these discussions over multiple pages!"). Carcharoth (talk) 10:57, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I came via Geogre's page as it happens, he certainly seems to have a held a military commission, I can't find his initial commission as a surgeon in the London Gazette, but from the dates, he was probably granted the commission just before the Crown took over the administration of India, so that's not entirely surprising (HEIC commissions were not gazetted). Had he been in the Civil Administration, I think it would have been explicitly stated (and he would probably have received at least part of his education at the East India Company College). I really must read through som eof the links on the ref desk thread as well, most of my knowledge of British India in all its forms comes from fiction (Sharpe, Matthew Hervey, and the Raj Quartet), so I really ought to put that on a more reliable footing. David Underdown (talk) 21:20, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Her Majesty's Indian Service

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Was finishing off a stub on Henry John Carter, and came across the phrase "on Her Majesty's Indian Service". I tentatively piped a link to Honourable East India Company, but was wondering if this was correct? I wonder if an article on Bombay Establishment (search for the term on Google) would help? See William Cornwallis Harris for another example. I checked Honourable East India Company, and it says: "Following the 1857 insurrection, known to the British as the "Great Mutiny" but to Indians as the "First War of Independence", the Company was nationalised by the Government in London to which it lost all its administrative functions and all of its Indian possessions - including its armed forces - were taken over by the Crown." So it seems it was nationalised at that point. Anyone want to say more about what "Her Majesty's Indian Service" means? At what point did the East India Company become the British Raj? Carcharoth (talk) 10:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

As the British Raj article states, 1858. I'd presume that Her Majesty's Indian Service is the 1858+ administration in India. Given the dates of Carter's publications, he was in India prior to the switchover from the company to the government. (sorry about the brevity of the response - not being dismissive of your question, just, er, should be working IRL). --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:05, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. The term "Bombay Establishment" seems quite, um, established, and predated the switchover. Seems to be a combination of a military and company term. For example, from A Glossary of Colloquial Anglo-Indian Words and Phrases: Hobson-Jobson, we have: "Every native of India on the Bombay Establishment, who can..." here. And "I was appointed a Writer on the Bombay Establishment in the Year 1789, and after that filled several subordinate Situations in the Revenue Line. I was afterwards Private Secretary to Mr. Duncan, when he was Governor of Bombay. After that I filled the Appointments successively of Commissioner in Malabar; Chief Secretary to the Government of Bombay; Principal Collector of Malabar, for, I think, about Two Years; and, finally, a Member of the Government of Bombay, which I left in 1811; and since that I have not been in India." [1]. And, from the Transactions of the Medical and Physical Society of Calcutta (1829), we have a list of members and their locations/stations: "Bombay Establishment", "Bengal Establishment", "Assistant Surgeon, His Majesty's Service", "Madras Establishment", "H.M.S.", "His Majesty's <insert army regiment name>", or in some cases, just a city name, such as "Calcutta", "Bengal", and so on. [2] Most though, are "X Establishment", so I was wondering what people can say about all this? BTW, the first article, about "Lettuce Opium", is fascinating! :-) Carcharoth (talk) 03:17, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Have a look also, Carcharoth, at the Government of India Act 1858. Clio the Muse (talk) 23:19, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. More specific question above. Carcharoth (talk) 03:17, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I also found Pitt's India Act, which might be relevant to how the administration of the company worked. Another interesting link is here (1857, A Brief Political and Military Analysis, Maj (Retd) AGHA HUMAYUN AMIN - from the Defence Journal). And (slightly off topic, but copying here for future reference): [3] (The Royal Society and the Empire: The Colonial and Commonwealth Fellowship. Part 1. 1731-1847, R. W. Home, Notes and Records of the Royal Society of London, Vol. 56, No. 3 (Sep., 2002), pp. 307-332). This question of "Establishments" may also be related to the "Presidencies" - see Presidencies of British India. Other colonial administrative units included Agencies of British India, and other subdivisions (see Category:Subdivisions of British India) were Cantonments, Districts, Divisions, Provinces and Residencies. Hardly surprising, as it was a large administration. Still not quite sure where the term "Establishment" comes from, and whether that was an official subdivision or whether it referred to the original establishments. Hopefully someone here will be able to add some more on this? Carcharoth (talk) 03:57, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Found this (from London Medical Gazette in June 1848) describing the medical set-up in India, with the medical personnel of the East India Company divided into three "establishments". A rather shocking tale of "Musselmen" and "savage natives" and more, in that link as well! Also, from here, we have "The East India Company (London establishment): an early domiciliary industrial medical service." Seems like "establishment" is a bit like "branch", as in different branches and divisions of a company. Definitely a formal type of subdivision, but still not quite precisely defined. Carcharoth (talk) 10:16, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Slightly more. From Honourable East India Company: "The major factories became the walled forts of Fort William in Bengal, Fort St George in Madras and the Bombay Castle." I'm satisfied that this point (from the 1600s) is what led to the later terms of "Bengal Establishment", "Madras Establishment" and "Bombay Establishment", though quite what the term meant to people in India and Britain at the time, I'm still not 100% clear. Honourable East India Company#Regulation of the company's affairs gives some idea of the succession of Acts passed. It seems by 1813, the company was effectively ended as an independent entity, though the formal dissolution did not come until as late as 1874 with the East India Stock Dividend Redemption Act. Interesting. Carcharoth (talk) 04:10, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

It also seems like "establishment" is geographical, so it's between a reservation and a city, between a compound and a district. I hate to do this, but it sounds a bit like Green Zone developed into a city-within-a-city and, at the same time, a commercial/financial distinction, like "Bombay office." Utgard Loki (talk) 11:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The EICo originally set up factories - not what we understand from the term today, but fortified trading "establishments". When these were expanded, each had an individual administration and set of services, both civil (the so-called "writers") and military. Over time, these came to be capitalised when they referred to those establishments that were the seats of Governors - Bombay, Madras, and Calcutta. (As opposed to, for example, Kidderpore or Barrackpore or Surat or Ahmednagar, which also had "establishments" which were not capitalised.) "On the X Establishment" thus meant that you were paid and took orders from X centre of power. This system persists today in the Indian military's set of Commands - the phrase "on the Western Establishment" is still sometimes heard. Following the centralisation of revenue, recruitment and payscales in the late nineteenth the phrase became less common. Bombay is a special case because being "On the Establishment" meant both being in service and answering to the Governor of Bombay, and also sometimes meant geographically close to the Fort. (Bombay's fort, unlike Calcutta and Madras', did not have a name, as it was founded by the Portuguese who presumably named it for a saint that the CofE didn't much like.) By the 19th c, its best to think of the Establishment as basically the administrative and military service attached to a particular Presidency. For various reasons of tradition and hypocrisy, it wasn't considered appropriate to call it a colonial government until the full panoply of the Raj was unveiled by Disraeli & co; the Company preferred to pretend always that it was holding land in obligation to nominal overlords - in Bengal, for example, it held the Diwani from the Mughals and paid them nominal tribute.

Carcharoth, feel free to copy the above to the relevant article talkpage if it helps. --Relata refero (disp.) 12:10, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Above copied from here Carcharoth (talk) 14:37, 27 April 2008 (UTC)