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Just wrong

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"The church fathers unanimously taught that eternal hellfire awaits people who do not repent of sin."

This is definitively not true. Several Church Fathers, such as Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Maximus the Confessor, etc. did NOT believe Hell was eternal. See: Christian universalism -- LightSpectra (talk)

Restructuring of Page

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I think the page should be restructured. A basic level restructuring based off of Hell in Christianity page may be good. The ordering of the sections could look somewhat like this:

  1. Meanings of the Word 'Hell' (discussing the different states that the term Hell or "infernus" could historically refer to, e.g., Hell of the Damned vs Hell or Limbo of the Fathers, while putting the primary focus of the article on the Hell of the Damned),
  2. Existence and Eternity of Hell (which seems the actual focus of the "As eternal flames" in the Hell in Christianity page),
  3. Hell as Self-exclusion or Final Impenitence,
  4. A Place or a State,
  5. Nature of Flames (on the debate of whether of fires are metaphorical or physical),
  6. Nature of Suffering,
  7. Predestination (with link to the main article)
  8. Call to Responsibility
  9. Visions or Private Revelations,
  10. Descent to Hell (about Harrowing of Hell in Catholicism, link to article)

I think most of the current content of the article is included in the Hell in Christianity page, except for the parts on Aquinas and certain visionaries. BoatInAStorm (talk) 20:32, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is a solid outline. Let me propose another:
  • History – a brief overview of how infernological views changed/developed over time
    • Can split this one by ages
    • Can perhaps be back loaded (i.e., moved farther down the page) if that makes more sense
  • Definitions
    • Discuss different translational approaches (Greek hades vs Hebrew Sheol/Gehenna, etc.)
    • Maybe demarcate differences in Eastern Catholic doctrine/tradition if there are any notable differences
  • Sources of doctrine
    • Scriptural/exegetical analysis
    • Private revelation (i.e., from saints, mystics)
    • I'm thinking of front loading this one because it will contextualize differing views below
  • Nature of suffering
    • Predestined vs not
    • Eternal conscious torture
    • Purgatorial hell (I have a Catholic source prepared for this one)
    • No hell/Balthasarian "Dare We Hope"
  • Comparisons with other sects
Thoughts? ThaesOfereode (talk) 22:49, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What about this reordering of your outline with some additions?
  • Definitions
    • Discuss different translational approaches
    • The different states that the term Hell or "infernus" could historically refer, CCC 633 and Roman Catechism
      • Defining of Hell as in CCC 1033 and Roman Catechism
      • Mention of the Harrowing of Hell with referral to main article
  • Sources of Doctrine
    • Scriptural/exegetical analysis (I'm thinking keeping this relatively short b/c Hell in Christianity page already goes into this)
  • Nature of Suffering (section where official teaching on Hell is summarized; I was thinking paralleling the structure of the CCC might be good, with the first two paragraphs already represented above)
    • Existence and Eternity of Hell (reference to fallen angels, CCEO 74)
    • Punishment (chief loss, degrees, etc.)
    • Predestination (rejection of double predestination, maybe a mention to the call to responsibility?)
  • History (I'm thinking more about the theological discussions/debates, specifically those that still have some relation to the current day, maybe a historical progression through each topic as a subsection?; my thinking is that someone clicking on the article just wanting to know the basic Catholic view on Hell could get those short summaries above and then the more in-depth, historical stuff could be further down)
    • Purgatorial Hell (I assume this is referring to the universalism view? if so, maybe could be part of larger section there)
    • No hell/Balthasarian "Dare We Hope"
    • Nature of Flames and A Place or a State (I think the Eastern Catholic tradition should be brought up here)
  • Private Revelation (I think this should be a distinct section as they are more historical than doctrinal in nature)
I'm not sure if a comparisons with other sects section is strictly needed (except maybe for Predestination) since there is already the Hell in Christianity page, but maybe it would be good as a stage two?
I don't think there is substantial difference in the Eastern Catholic tradition, except in regarding the nature of Hell fire, which I think can be discussed in the History section. The Ukrainian Byzantine Catechism has a paragraph about Hell. BoatInAStorm (talk) 02:18, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That all works. Only minor quibble is that I would put the "kinds of hell" subsections as part of "Nature of suffering" section, since they reflect some modern Catholic interpretations rather than simply as historical notation. Re: Purgatorialism; it is a kind of universalism wherein souls which we might consider "hellbound" would only go through extreme purification rather than eternal suffering. This view is expounded by a Catholic priest in this source,[1] which I've been slowly picking away at.
Aside from that, this is a good layout. We should begin salvaging what sources are good and divvying up sections to work on. I'm partial to "kinds of hell" and the exegesis, but I'm happy to take on whatever you don't want to. Just let me know and I'll start doing some source searching. ThaesOfereode (talk) 03:17, 30 May 2024 (UTC) ThaesOfereode (talk) 03:17, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can take the Definitions page, the bullets I put for official teaching sections, and start on the Nature of Flames and A Place or a State sections. I can also start outlining the Private Revelation section. I think Catholic Encyclopedia, the New Catholic Encyclopedia, and The Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by L. Ott would be good tertiary sources to start with. For the History of the sections, I will need to find more sources. BoatInAStorm (talk) 22:14, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the Catholic Encyclopedia entry for hell and something stands out in the first few paragraphs. The piece is from 1910 and almost certainly outdated; I'm fairly certain that doctrine on hell is not fully or correctly captured with regards to current, modern doctrine, dogma, or general acceptance among theologians. To the latter point, Hontheim declares that, although the Church has said nothing on the matter, "theologians generally accept the opinion that hell is really within the earth". That might have been true at the time of his writing (before the Church fully accepted evolution by means of natural selection, by the way), but I am extremely skeptical that this is still the case. We should look to back the claims of this source up with a second one or only use it as a secondary/tertiary source for collected, referenced claims (i.e., where it cites Scripture or a particular author). ThaesOfereode (talk) 12:37, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, the source is a little outdated. I think it serves as a good historical and corroboratory tertiary source. BoatInAStorm (talk) 00:57, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, thanks for cleaning up the page. You did a great job in the editing. BoatInAStorm (talk) 01:04, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Hayes, Zachary J.; Pinnock, Clark H.; Walvoord, John F.; Gundry, Stanley N. (1996). Crockett, William V. (ed.). Four Views on Hell. Counterpoints Theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan. ISBN 0-310-21268-5.
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