Talk:Helena Vale, Western Australia

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Merger proposal

I propose that Helena Vale, Western Australia be merged into Midland, Western Australia. The two articles deal with the same place and the Helena Vale content can be included in the history section of the Midland page. Hack (talk) 04:41, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

originally created as a separate as there was intention to expand on the race course and railway branch. problem is they are?were separate locations technically speaking. JarrahTree 05:16, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So it's duplicating both Town of Midland and Midland, Western Australia? Hack (talk) 05:31, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nope

Helena Vale was originally the name for midland
Midland Junction and Helena Vale were later separate localities at some point (viz wwI and the racing venue and railway branch having the name
Midlvale claims to be an amalgam of land from the 2 sep localities in current wp en article

I do not have old road maps to hand, or the opportunity to check trove entries - maybe later today JarrahTree 05:38, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's a former locality, and a significant one, that does not necessarily easily line up with Midland. It should be separate. There's pretty abundant potential content for it. The Drover's Wife (talk) 11:19, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

From what I can tell, the timelines are follows

The locality

Midland Junction (1891) → Midland (1961)

The municipality

Helena Vale Municipality (1895) → Midland Junction (1901) → Town of Midland (1961) → Shire of Swan (1970) → City of Swan

Hack (talk) 12:06, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The bit about the municipality is true, but the first bit appears to not be. I went digging through Government Gazettes and Trove and there was official references to Helena Vale as a locality in the vicinity of the racecourse (i.e. not Midland proper) well into the mid-20th century. I had trouble pinning down the exact dates and got bored, but JarrahTree has a strong historical knowledge of the Midland area and what I found was consistent with his understanding and not yours. The Drover's Wife (talk) 12:12, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

drovers exaggerates... my 1970 and 1974 metro street directories (cannot find my pre 1955 ones off the shelf easily) show that the boundaries of swan view and midvale look like some jockeying for territory between the mundaring and midland councils was occurring in the mid 1970s, and that is not taking into account what the new standard railway guage line did in 1966 (it bumped midvale right across to the railway line as an eastern boundary), or where and why wexcombe came and went (1974 appears as a trim off west swan view)...

oh for an overlay of localcity and council boundaries for all the extant msd's for the area where we are talking about - it would help...JarrahTree 12:18, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing to do with this article, but re: Wexcombe - as far as our article is concerned, it's modern Stratton. The Drover's Wife (talk) 12:21, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am finding that the issue for me, personally is that the boundaries of swan view, midland change over time, and various localities gain or lose as a result of the council boundary issue between mundaring amd midland - as a result, helena vale (I am sure it was some sort of locality identity sometime down there...), midvale and bellevue for that matter (weird bellevue oval in 1970 wasnt actually in bellevue?) all changed so much that some sources might disguise a more fluid process of locality boundary alignments over time, and as a result is not so easily differentiated short of a visit some time to swan library midland history room and its goldmine of info.. JarrahTree 12:29, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

According to this article from 1900, there was a vote to change the name of the municipality from Helena Vale to Midland Junction because people were "under the impression that Helena Vale and Midland Junction were two distinct places". Also if this is to be believed, Helena Vale was the original, shortlived, name of the station. Hack (talk) 12:46, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

good finds, thanks, JarrahTree 13:35, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've struck the proposal. I think the page should be merged but some research is needed. Hack (talk) 02:48, 30 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

argument for not to merge

The reason for the creation of the article (and its wording) is the identiification of a part of Midland history before boundary wars between the mundaring and midland councils moved things around at the foot of the swan view and the eastern side of midland were codified into the various forms of midvale . As such there are parts of the landscape that 'had' evidence, in the naming of the race course and the railway line. They were both significant identified locations in the movement of troops from Black Boy hill during the first world war. imho I believe that is sufficient to keep the article as it is. JarrahTree 07:51, 30 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]