Talk:Helena (wife of Inge the Elder)

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Elin is a little girl.

Do you mean "Elin means little girl in Swedish" or something like that?

--Clausc (talk) 06:43, 13 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Elin doesn't mean that, so that was probably not a serious edition. But the world "Mö" means little girl or "Maiden", and her "name" Maer was an old word for that. --85.226.235.206 (talk) 10:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Move without discussion

The page was moved today without discussion and named as per a heretofore unknown WP format (I think). Why not discuss first? Wouldn't Helena (Maer), Queen of Sweden be a better name for the article? SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:34, 3 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The format is not unknown. It is used by a rather large number of articles, especially in articles about her contemporaries. Ota (wife of Arnulf of Carinthia), Fausta (wife of Constans II), Anastasia (wife of Constantine IV), Theodora (wife of Justinian I), Eudokia (wife of Heraclius), Galla (wife of Theodosius I), Alypia (daughter of Anthemius) and Helena (wife of Julian) are just some examples. I am not sure that Helena (Maer), Queen of Sweden would help a reader recognise her. Can you cite any English-language sources that refer to her as Helena Maer? Isn't Helena (wife of Inge I of Sweden) most descriptive title for the article about a woman who is only known by her first name? Surtsicna (talk) 18:28, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No. You cite no examples as long as this one. If the format you cite is to be used why add "of Sweden"? Since it purely speculative to assign a numeral "I" to this king - there were probably at least three Inges before him in obscure centuries - the format is doubly inappropriate. Why not discuss before moving? Using your idea, the only solution I could agree to would be Helena (wife of Inge the Elder). Your request for any English-language sources that refer to her as Helena Maer is moot. Can you cite any English-language sources that refer to her at all? SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:03, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No what? If we are going to count letters, "Ota (wife of Arnulf of Carinthia)" is as long (or longer) than "Helena (wife of Inge I of Sweden)". It is the same format, so your argument is moot. If the numer I is good enough to be used in the title of the article about Inge I of Sweden, then it is surely good enough to be used in the article about his wife. I could not agree to Helena (wife of Inge the Elder) while the article about her husband is titled Inge I of Sweden; why should we confuse our readers by calling him Inge I of Sweden and calling her wife of Inge the Great? My argument is not moot just because you don't have access to an English language book that refers to her. I do have access to such sources. For example, Kingship and state formation in Sweden, 1130-1290 (by Philip Line) mentions her on page 594. Christianization and the rise of Christian monarchy: Scandinavia, Central Europe and Rus' c. 900-1200 (by Nora Berend) mentions her on page 204. Days afoot and European sketches (by James Baker) mentions her on page 172. The Anderson-Krogh genealogy: ancestral lines and descendants mentions her on page 38. If that's not enough, I can go on. Anyway, none of the sources I've encountered refers to her as Maer - and neither should we. Surtsicna (talk) 22:58, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No in answer to your last question - normal English. Since the woman is basically unknown even to all Swedish historians, except for the fact that her name seems to have been Helena and/or Maer, we can't expect others to be experts on her. - In any case, I will not discuss this (or anything else) with you any further until you adopt a less belligerent and antagonistic tone and until you answer in a civil tone my most important question to you: Why do you move/rename articles about Swedish royals without allowing experts on the subject to participate in a discussion first? SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:41, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me for not understanding normal English. I deeply apologize for not being born with English words flowing out of my mouth; I know that upsets you. You can't seriously expect me to adopt a tone less belligerent and antagonistic than yours. You obviously started this discussion just to criticize my action; if you hadn't, you would have defended the previous title. Helena, Queen of Sweden was an inappropriate title because she was not the only Queen of Sweden called Helena. Helena (wife of Inge I of Sweden) is by far better than Helena, Queen of Sweden and you haven't contested that. Why do you move/rename articles about Swedish royals without allowing experts on the subject to participate in a discussion first? If I see something that can be improved, I improve it. Experts on Swedish royals who can propose a name that is more commonly used to refer to her in English literature are welcome. Now please, answer my question: Do you seriously believe that I did some harm by moving this article from Helena, Queen of Sweden to Helena (wife of Inge I of Sweden)? Yes or no? Surtsicna (talk) 19:11, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Without discussing: yes. SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:19, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How exactly? What makes Helena, Queen of Sweden a better title than Helena (wife of Inge I of Sweden)? The former is ambigious and the latter is descriptive. So, how have I harmed Wikipedia by moving the article without your (or anyone else's) blessing? Please read Wikipedia:Be bold. I made a useful contribution; I improved Wikipedia a bit. You disagreed only because I hadn't asked for your permission, even though you don't say that the former title is better than the present one. Surtsicna (talk) 22:43, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also see Talk:Inge I of Sweden#Move request. SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:26, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to third opinion request ( Disagreement about whether or not article should have been moved without discussion and about an appropriate name for it. ):

I am responding to a third opinion request for this page. I have made no previous edits on Helena (wife of Inge I of Sweden) and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes.

On the question of whether or not the article should have been moved without discussion, there is no Wikipedia policy that requires that it be discussed first as far as I know. The move was made in good faith and appears to have been a positive change. It is standard practice on Wikipedia to make bold changes if you think they are improvements. If someone disagrees, they are entitled to revert your change and begin a discussion about if afterwards, as part of the normal bold, revert, discuss cycle. For what it's worth I do think this is a more useful and less ambiguous name than the original.

As for the appropriate name, it seems to me that it makes sense for there to be harmony between (in this case) the article name for the king, and the article name for his queen when it uses his name for disambiguation. As long as Inge I's article is called "Inge I of Sweden" it makes sense to use that same formulation in the "Wife of..." for this article. If Inge I's article is renamed to "Inge the Elder" this article should be renamed to match in my opinion. Thparkth (talk) 23:46, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! As I am very uncomfortable about my own ability to reverse article moves correctly, this kind of boldness is not my favorite kind. Are article moves/names really supposed to be reversed back and forth without restraint? What happens to all the linking involved? SergeWoodzing (talk) 07:07, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Thparkth! I agree with every word you've said. SergeWoodzing, if you really believe that the previous name (Helena, Queen of Sweden) is better, revert my change but explain why you think that it is better. For what it's worth, it seems that all editors involved in this discussion (including you) agree that the present name is more useful and less ambigious name than Helena, Queen of Sweden. If your proposal to move Inge I of Sweden to Inge the Elder doesn't fail, I will be happy to see this article moved to Helena (wife of Inge the Elder). Surtsicna (talk) 09:50, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Removed xref

I removed this today

Can't see how it is relevant here. SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:52, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Elin" redirects here. It should probably have its own page.

Andejons (talk) 06:57, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Way too much speculation

This article contains a very high percentage of speculation and lacks the basic references to the fact that we only have a single source of her existence (Herevarsaga). Why so speculative? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.11.70.16 (talk) 12:32, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]