Talk:Heinlein juveniles

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Arc of the juveniles

I added a paragraph on the "expansionist arc" of the juveniles to the article intro. This is the basic observation that the first juvie is concerned with getting to the Moon, the next few revolve around interplanetary travel & relationships within Earth's solar system, the next few are about early attempts at interstellar travel, and in the last few interstellar travel is accomplished and relatively easy. (At least for the Mother Thing's people :-) This seems to me to be fairly basic, even obvious info: anyone who has read the books would know this. I think it's well-known in discussions of these books. But it would be good to have a source for this. Is there a good source that states this observation? Jim Hardy (talk) 03:52, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Until and unless a reliable source is found as a cite, some of your additions are original research and inappropriate for the article. (We can state facts; we cannot draw conclusion from facts.) In the paragraph that begins with "The novels are not related", I removed/rewrote sentences that don't simply state facts that are clearly contained in the juveniles. That Rocket Ship Galileo is about a trip to the moon is clearly factual (that is, the novels themselves serve as reliable sources); that the juveniles as a whole form an arc on the expansion of human space travel is not. Similarly, I removed the discussion of whether the juveniles' Venus and Mars are the same as in other Heinlein works because that is, again, original research without a cite. That Hazel Stone appears in other works is not, however, and is permissible. I also fixed up two cases of punctuation use according to WP:MOS. Ylee (talk) 04:48, 20 March 2012 (UTC

Thanks. It seems a fine line. Once we observe that the first novel is about a trip to the Moon, and the next five are about trips to the planets within the Solar System, and the next four are about the beginnings of (different types of) interstellar travel, and the next three have such well-established "easy" interstellar travel that the trip is not the adventure, rather the stories are more concerned with politics between civilizations – how is it any kind of jump to say that the novels depict an expansion of human space travel? It doesn't even seem like a conclusion, just a basic observation of the novels' plots in sequence. Jim Hardy (talk) 08:31, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

We do not know that Heinlein intended any such arc to exist. Were we literary critics writing about Heinlein, sure, that could be a conclusion to discuss. Wikipedia is not meant to be a place for one's own research, however. That's why I left the factual discussion of the setting/premise of each book; stating facts and letting readers draw their own conclusions is all right. Ylee (talk) 15:51, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I get it, I think. It's just, we don't need to draw any conclusion about Heinlein's intentions. The plots of the novels are there to see. Viewed chronologically, the scope of space travel increases. Jim Hardy (talk) 17:07, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Found a source to cite. Re-inserted the bit about the "arc", along with the quote from the source. I think Damon Knight also made this observation in an essay on the juvies. If I find that, I'll add a cite for it too. Jim Hardy (talk) 14:47, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

relationship with editor, the publishing deal

It seems a little funny to me that there's no discussion of Heinlein's relationship with his editor at Scribner's-- via _Grumbles_, we know a fair amount about it.

I was also wondering about what kind of publishing deal Heinlein had with them. He had an agreement with Campbell where Campbell was required to accept all his submissions or Heinlein start submitting them elsewhere-- in other words, was Starship Troopers seriously intended as a juvenile, or was it effectively a resignation letter, handing them something he knew they wouldn't publish? -- Doom (talk) 21:04, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

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Quote needed

I believe there's a well-known quote from Heinlein on how to write a juvenile that would go well here. Something like "Make your protagonist sixteen, then just write as usual". Well-known I say, but I've looked for a source online a couple of times without success. I expect I read it in a preface to one of his YA novels. Ring a bell, anyone? --D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 19:26, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Legacy

I think I've stumbled across quotes over the years, where engineers & scientists say one of their inspirations for getting into the field was these juveniles. Has anyone seen any such quotes? When Heinlein referred to "his propaganda purposes" (Grumbles), I think that's the kind of thing he had in mind: helping create the future by inspiring young boys to become techs. If we find any such quotes, might by a useful addition to the article, either under "Reception" or a separate heading. Jim Hardy (talk) 13:49, 19 May 2021 (UTC)