Talk:Height of Land Portage

Other Height of Land portages

This article is about the portage on the international border on the canoe route from Grand Portage to Rainy Lake. There are a number of other Height of Land Portages, including:

• "Height of Land Portage" near Lake Nipissing in Ontario on the Montreal to Grand Portage mainline of the voyageurs;
• "Height of Land Portage" between Embarrass and Pike River in Minnesota, mentioned in the article;
• "Height of Land Portage" in the Sudbury District in Ontario; I believe this is on the Lake Superior/James Bay divide.

There may be others. As height of land is a term for a divide, any portage crossing a divide could be called by the same name. As articles on these others are added we should discuss how we want to handle disambiguation. Kablammo 22:05, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

There are several other Height of Land Portages in Canada. As (and if) articles are added for the others, it would be appropriate to move this article to Height of Land Portage (Ontario-Minnesota) and then convert the residual redirect page (bearing the present name) to a disambiguation page. Should anyone otherwise feel the need to confer with me on such a name change, my support is given here in advance.

There is only one portage on the Minnesota-Ontario border which has this name and crosses a height of land, so the renaming suggested above would work. Kablammo (talk) 20:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

MN/Ontario border statistic

BTW, nice work on this article, Kablammo. The article states:

According to the Canada/US International Boundary Commission Ontario has 2700 km of water boundary with the United States and only 1 km of land boundary;[4] 40% of the land border is along this portage.

The reference is this IBC pdf. Thinking about the border, 1 km is in the ballpark, although it sounds a little short, unless every swamp and flowage on the border is counted as water. Portages on the US-Ontario border without rivers adjacent to them include Watap Portage from Mountain to Watap Lake (100 rods), Height of Land (80 rods), Monument Portage from Swamp to Ottertrack lakes (80 rods), and Beatty Portage from Lac La Croix to Loon (50 rods). That makes 310 rods which equals 1.56 km. I realize the border does not match up with these portages exactly. The low precision of the quoted statistic (2700/1 are obviously very rounded numbers) makes me a little uneasy with the resulting calculation of Height of Land's share of the land border. Using my numbers, I get 26%. -- BlueCanoe 02:12, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

(I was originally going to include Long Portage from Rove to Rose Lake (600+ rods), but upon further research there is a small creek that flows from Rove to Rose.) -- BlueCanoe 02:12, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Arrrgh! Beatty Portage isn't dryland either. There is a creek parallel to it, which surprises me because I'm pretty sure there is a large outlet from Lac La Croix northwards which comprises the Namakan River (entirely within Ontario). Lake elevation drops from Lac La Croix to Loon Lake across Beatty Portage, so Lac La Croix must have 2 outlets? That brings the portage distance down to 460 rods = 1.31 km --> Height of Land = 31%. -- BlueCanoe 02:12, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

The number surprised me, but I decided to use it because of the competence of the source, and the fact that so many of the portages parallel watercourses through which the border runs. My lingering doubts however led me to specific ascribe the source in the text. I do not know the western part of the area in question as well as the eastern, and make no claim to, or rely on, the dreaded "OR". It is an interesting figure.

The portages now listed total 260 r. Are there any others? We could remove the precision of the 40% figure and replace it with some other term.

Per Morse, Lac La Croix does have two outlets; the southerly one is Loon River.

It would be great to be able to use the photograph in the IBC source-- it will not be easy to find a comparable photo for this article. Kablammo 09:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I have now found an acceptable source for the assertion that there are only 3 portages constituting the land boundary along the Minnesota border; for the rest of Ontario's U.S. border we will have to rely common knowledge (obvious at least to anyone who looks at a map). The text names the other two portages, but I have preferred the historical name Swamp Portage to Monument Portage while mentioning both names for the crossing. As you (BlueCanoe) noted, the IBC estimate of 1 km is too low, but not by much. I have however deleted the 1 km figure and instead used the totals given by your source. As that source (comprehensive though it is) is on a family-run website, it may be preferable to find another source. Kablammo 14:12, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Rods

I second BlueCanoe's reversion of the removal of rods as the unit of measure, I almost did it myself. They are the common units for that. The reverted change also had accuracy problems under the way those are used. 80 rods indicates (and is exactly) 1/4 mile. North8000 (talk) 12:45, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

According to the Manual of Style: "For topics strongly associated with a given place, put the most appropriate units first." Canoe portages in northeastern Minnesota are measured by the rod, and these measurements are printed on maps and written in books. A conversion to metric and/or feet in parentheses is fine, but the rod should be the leading unit. -- BlueCanoe (talk) 17:03, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

My view on the topics is the same, and so added (not replaced) a reference in "miles" for those not familiar with "rods". This was before I visited this talk page (which I should get in the habit of doing before I make edits). Interesting information about how portages are measured. Dan Aquinas (talk) 17:41, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Map?

No locator map? Sca (talk) 19:56, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Done, some time ago. Kablammo (talk) 02:49, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Continental divide?

The article as I wrote it asserts that the portage is on the divide between the Atlantic and the Arctic Oceans. There is a dispute as to whether Hudson Bay is in the Arctic or Atlantic watershed, a dispute reflected in several of Wikipedia's articles. Ways to address the question could be by explanatory text or (better) an explanatory footnote, or ignoring the issue and just assert that the watershed north of the divide is in the Hudson Bay watershed (which Vergangenheitsbewältigung's edit did).

I am indifferent as to the mode of addressing it, as we will not solve the question on Wikipedia, and for our purposes it does not matter.

— (Pinging Vergangenheitsbewältigung and North8000.) Kablammo (talk) 16:09, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

If there is a dispute about the Hudson Bay's watershed, then perhaps the map on the Laurentian Divide page needs to be reconsidered. That's where I drew my conclusions in my edit. I don't know that a footnote in this article helps much; it would probably belong on the Hudson Bay page. Vergangenheitsbewältigung (talk) 16:35, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Our article on Hudson Bay discusses both alternatives. Kablammo (talk) 19:43, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Cool, thanks.North8000 (talk) 23:42, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm open to any of the possibilities involved including Vergangenheitsbewältigung's edit which I reverted. (and then I reverted my revert) Let's just decide and do it. Which means decide on the underlying questions: North8000 (talk) 17:00, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

On the "eastern" side, in this article shall we name the watershed by the "river" that drains it (St. Lawrence) or the ocean that that it drains into (the Atlantic) North8000 (talk) 17:00, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Both are fine but I lean toward the Atlantic ocean. Simpler and more interesting/ dramatic.North8000 (talk) 17:07, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

On the "western" side, is this article shall we name the watershed by the intermediate body that it drains into (Hudson Bay) or the ocean that it ultimately drains into (Arctic or Atlantic) North8000 (talk) 17:00, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

I think Hudson Bay. Mostly because the ocean is ambiguous and then to also avoid dealing with the next question. North8000 (talk) 17:09, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

If the answer to the previous question is the ocean, should it be the Arctic or the Atlantic? Sources seem to say it's a matter of opinion, not definitive.North8000 (talk) 17:03, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Moot question of we go with Hudson Bay. Otherwise I lean toward Arctic rather than Atlantic. North8000 (talk) 17:11, 2 July 2021 (UTC)