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Talk:Hat (Davy Graham album)

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Requested move 25 May 2021

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved both Hat (album) → Hat (Davy Graham album) and Hat. (album) → Hat. (Mike Keneally album). The second one is not universally approved, but it needs to be moved somewhere anyway so I'll go with the numerical majority, no point to keep this RM open so long. And a dot is a lousy disambiguator anyway. No such user (talk) 13:16, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

– Per WP:SMALLDETAILS and WP:CRITERIA these two obscure albums are made even more obscure by trying to hide them. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:01, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose Per WP:SMALLDETAILS. One includes a punctuation mark, one does not, and a hatnote on both pages directs users who may have landed on the one with a different name from the one they wanted.--Yaksar (let's chat) 03:24, 26 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Why have people land on wrong pages and hunt hatnotes? The dot is not consistent: the only book source does not have the dot. here. Neither does his comment in EQ Volume 6, Issues 7-12 Page 99 "the San Diego Street Scene recorded my album Hat on on stage because... " In ictu oculi (talk) 07:27, 26 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Yaksar: found a third source, and guess what, no dot, like the first 2. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:18, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ok? That's what hatnotes are for. I don't think anyone is arguing that someone searching for "Hat." couldn't search without the period, but that's why there's an easy link up at the top of the page. Unless you are trying to argue this album has no period at all, this doesn't change the point. There is still only one possible article named "Hat." If they search the wrong name without a period, they'll see a note right up top saying "For the Mike Keneally album, see Hat. (album)." --Yaksar (let's chat) 20:49, 21 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Or, more simply: if a user searches "Hat (album)" without a period they end up at that page. If they search with a period they end up at that page. If they search without a period, but wanted the one with a period, there is a hatnote right up top getting them to the correct page. I don't see why making every single user instead go to a disambguation page would be a better solution. Or why, given there is no reason a user searching with a period could mean to end up anywhere else, the article with a period should be moved at all, if you could explain.--Yaksar (let's chat) 20:58, 21 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Yaksar: The problem is that we don't generally (and shouldn't) use partial disambiguation so even if the Mike Keneally album was only called/searched for without the period occasionally it would still be ambiguous and I would be surprised if any more than a fraction would use the period. We don't rely on hatnotes if the title fails WP:D or WP:AT which this does. Readers who search for a qualified title should in general be sent back to the DAB rather than to one of the ambiguous topics. So yes there are 3 problems, (1) that the vast majority of readers are not going to know that the other has a trailing period especially when we tend not to use unusual modifiers per MOS:TM (2) as has been noted the period doesn't appear to be consistently used by sources (primary and third party) and the album's picture only just shows it if you look closely and (3) titles/disambiguation should normally be unambiguous per WP:INCDAB. Would you support my alternative suggestion on moving this album as proposed (and retargeting this title to the DAB) and moving the other to Hat.? Given that although many readers won't be aware of the Mike Keneally album including a trailing period, anyone who does take the trouble to include it in their search will only be looking for it per WP:SMALLDETAILS. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:03, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Yaksar: But why not title the albums properly so no one has to play the "oh this isn't what I wanted, follow a hatnote" game? What's the point of misdirecting people? Is there some disadvantage to a recognizable title? In ictu oculi (talk) 18:21, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hatnotes don't "misdirect" people -- they get readers who may have been intending to a find a different subject to that page in one click. And no one would have a reason to expect a different page at "Hat." with a period either way. Having instead all users instead go to a disambiguation page if anything makes the situation less navigable for readers, and certainly not more.--Yaksar (let's chat) 21:58, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support 1st since although the Mike Keneally album gets more views (33) than the Davy Graham one (26)[[1]] we can't rely on the absence of an unusual dot for SMALLDETAILS however the album with the dot appears to be the only use so should probably be moved to Hat. which already redirects here since anyone intentionally searching with the dot would only be looking for this one. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:41, 26 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Yaksar: I'm saying that the Davy Graham album should probably be moved as proposed since we can't rely on the full stop to distingish since few readers are going to tack it on and thus is partial disambiguation however anyone who does bother to add the full stop will only be looking for the Mike Keneally album so that should go to Hat., alternatively the Mike Keneally album could be moved to Hat (Mike Keneally album) if the dot isn't that common. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:01, 28 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Changing to full support per IIO's point about the dot not even being consistently used in sources, we simply can't expect readers to know that the other has a trailing dot. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:15, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Crouch, Swale: @Yaksar: given that the three GBook sources all miss the dot why are we are having a discussion about what to do with the dot? In ictu oculi (talk) 19:18, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well I guess that depends on if the dot can serve as natural disambiguation or not, keep in mind per MOS:TM we tend to remove unusual punctuation but even if we don't few readers are going to be aware of it especially if most sources don't use it. Even if we do move the one with the dot to the dot base name we should still move the other from the incomplete disambiguation. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:25, 19 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There's no question there should be a hatnote on the page without the period, because clearly reliable sources sometimes use the incorrect name. But this solution doesn't make this any more navigable and easier for readers. If they search the wrong name without a period, they'll see a note right up top saying "For the Mike Keneally album, see Hat. (album)."--Yaksar (let's chat) 20:54, 21 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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