Talk:Hartsville, Tennessee

Greentop

The "large hill" rising above the downtown Hartsville area is called "Hilltop" or "Hill Top," but I can't find a name for it on any map. The road leading to the top of the hill is called "Greentop Street." If any editors know of or can find a name for this hill, please list it in the geography section. Bms4880 (talk) 18:31, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: The hill's summit is located at coordinates 36.39056 lat. and -86.17056 long. Bms4880 (talk) 18:36, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

revert

Regarding this revert, that edit summery is technically correct. The adoption of consolidated city-county government turned the town of Hartsville into the city of Hartsville, enlarged to be coextensive with the county. It was the the land within the former town borders that became an unincorporated community. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 20:14, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

By that same logic, I guess we would need to conclude that Nashville and Indianapolis no longer exist because of the adoption of metropolitan government, and that Jack Daniel's whiskey is no longer made in Lynchburg, but is now made in Moore County. --Orlady (talk) 20:19, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

People in Hartsville-Trousdale County still think that Hartsville is the county seat: http://www.hartsvilletrousdale.com/ . --Orlady (talk) 20:25, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

The Tennessee Blue Book, published by the Tennessee Secretary of State, treats Trousdale as a county and Hartsville as its county seat, with a metropolitan government. See pages 729-746 in this section of the book. Also, in Tennessee the words "town" and "city" are synonymous; some incorporated places are cities and some are towns -- there is no difference other than the choice of words in their charters. --Orlady (talk) 20:33, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

No, the City of Hartsville/Trousdale County exists, so does the former town/unincorporated community.

I don't understand your point about "town" and "city" are synonymous. They might have the same legal status and powers, but as you pointed out there is a difference, what the municipality classifies itself as. There is no such thing as the "Town of Morristown" or the "City of Alexandria". Pre-consolidation there was no such thing as the "City of Hartsville" and today there is no such thing as the "Town of Hartsville" (except for the unincorporated town).

Lastly, isn't the present day county seat (at least officially) the City of Hartsville, not the unincorporated community (the book only had 115 pages)? Can an unincorporated community even be a county seat? Either way I don't see your point, if it's the unincorporated town, that just shows that we really need an article about it. If it's the City, than the city-county is it's own county seat (or if you want to get really really specific, Trousdale County's county seat is it's coterminous City of Hartsville), so what? Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 23:55, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Now that that's out of the way, on to my main point. First of all, This isn't like the Nashville and Indianapolis articles. First of all, Nashville and Indianapolis are probably in fully urbanized counties, where the difference between one city and another, and weather an area is one city or many cities is arbitrary, and determined by little more then where some government bureaucrat draws a line on a map. Hartsville is not like that, there is indisputably an unincorporated town there surrounded by farmland. Ignoring the former municipal borders, you could debate where exactly the boundaries are, how far into the farmland area you would need to go to be out of the town, that kind of thing, but what is not debatable is there is an unincorporated town there. Unincorporated communities (towns and otherwise), when notable, get their own article.

Secondly unlike the Nashville and Indianapolis articles which are about the city-county, this article is, for the most part, about the former town/unincorporated community. The Geography, Demographics, and History sections and infobox, are entirely about the unincorporated community. The only part of this article even partly about the city-county is the lead section. With the partial exemption of the "History" section this article's proper scope must be ether the unincorporated town or the city-county. Considering that almost every section of this article is about the unincorporated town, that's it's proper scope. Besides we already have an article about the city-county at Trousdale County, Tennessee.

About city-counties having two articles, my understanding is that there is no consensus on weather they should, and that some do and some don't. The reason some do is because, tough the scopes are otherwise identical, the historical info pre-consolidation is different (e.g. Philadelphia#History, Philadelphia County#History). That reason however is not applicable here; this article covers the pre-consolidation history of Hartsville, we don't need a second Trousdale County article to do that. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 23:55, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Where to begin? I suppose I could ask if you've ever been to Hartsville -- or why you chose to get involved with the article, but that's not a fair question -- anyone can edit here, and we shouldn't question their motives.

I'll start with something easy: The Tennessee Blue Book is a printed book. It has a lot of pages (771 of them). Every page has a number on it (except for blank pages in the back). The online edition is divided into several separate PDF files. The page reference I cited was a reference to a page number in the book, not a page number in the PDF file that contains that part of the book. If you look at the file, you should be able to see the page numbers. If you look at the section I referred you to, you will find lists of the state's counties and its cities and towns. You will find Hartsville in the list of cities and Trousdale County in the list of counties. You will see that Hartsville is listed as the county seat of Trousdale County. You will see footnotes that indicate that the counties of Davidson, Moore, and Trousdale have "metropolitan governments" (the state of Tennessee does not call them "consolidated city-counties") and that Hartsville, Lynchburg, and Nashville "represent urban service districts" within those metropolitan governments.

As you see from the blue book, the state of Tennessee (which charters Tennessee's counties and municipalities) still regards Trousdale County and Hartsville as distinct entities.

See this link for information about metropolitan government in Tennessee. You will note that the individual municipalities in a consolidated government are considered "urban service districts" within the county. "Urban service districts" receive more public services than their counties and generally have higher taxes. Although Nashville-Davidson County has a single metropolitan government, the several municipalities in the county still are recognized (see page 742 in the blue book). They function as "urban service districts".

If you visit Nashville or Indianapolis, you may find that the experience tests your theories regarding consolidated city-counties. You will observe that neither of their counties is one big city. The Census Bureau undoubtedly calls them "urbanized areas", but most people wouldn't call them "fully urbanized" -- they both contain some fairly rural areas.

The decision to adopt metropolitan government for Hartsville and Trousdale County presumably was related to efficiency in government operation (with less than 8,000 people in the entire county, it wasn't a good idea to try to operate separate organizations for both Hartsville and the county), not an initiative to eliminate Hartsville. Becoming part of a metropolitan government did not make Hartsville an unincorporated area -- if anything, the adoption of metropolitan government made the entire county into an incorporated municipality.

Although some Wikipedia editors have placed great emphasis on distinguishing between Tennessee's "cities" and "towns", there is no difference between these.["State Tax Sharing, Fairness, and Local Government Finances in Tennessee" (PDF). Tennessee.gov. Tennessee Advisory Commission on Intergovernmental Relations. January 2004. p. xiv. Retrieved 2008-11-07. There are 348 cities in Tennessee and each is characterized as either a city or a town (in our state, there is no legal distinction between the two).] Within the state, all municipalities are often collectively referred to as "cities", regardless of the terminology used in their charters.

Anyway, Wikipedia articles about local places are not limited to places that currently have a separate and legally constituted local government. Places and governments aren't necessarily synonymous. --Orlady (talk) 02:27, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

You are correct that the "town of Hartsville" no longer exists as a legally incorporated entity, based on the charter for the consolidated government, which can be downloaded from this page. The charter also indicates Trousdale County no longer exists as a legally constituted government. The reality is that Hartsville is still recognized as a "town" (similar to Blountville, Tennessee, which is an unincorporated place that serves as a county seat and is commonly referred to as a "town" although it lost its municipal charter a long time ago) and Trousdale County is still thought of as a county. Consolidation of government did not annihilate the identities of the places. --Orlady (talk) 03:25, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

According to the county website, Hartsvilille, despite the city-county government, is still a musicality within the county, is that what you're trying to tell me? What threw me off was the lead saying "The population of Hartsville was 2,395 at the 2000 census, but after consolidation with the county in 2001, the population of the consolidated entity became equal to that of the county (7,259 in 2000)." and "Hartsville is the county seat of Trousdale County and now coextensive with it", which clearly (incorrectly) imply that the municipal boundaries were extended to cover the whole county (like Philadelphia). Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 11:46, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Ouch! I am the one who wrote those words, more than 5 years ago. The online source that I cited is no longer accessible, so I can't tell what the source said when I wrote that statement (and I definitely don't remember). The page about Hartsville on that same website now says that Hartsville had a 2010 population of 2,369. That's consistent with the Tennessee Blue Book, which also reports the city population as smaller than the county population. The Census Bureau does not have entries for "Hartsville town, Tennessee" or "Hartsville CCD" for 2010, but it lists the 2010 population of Hartsville-Trousdale County as 7,870. It also lists data for 10 census "districts" in Trousdale County, some of which probably combine to give the state its population number for Hartsville.

IMO, the article's lead should still identify Hartsville as a town and county seat, but that information should be followed (as it is now) by the statement about the consolidated government. The information about population should include the 2010 population reported by the state, appropriately referenced and accompanied by an indication that the Census Bureau did not report data for Hartsville in 2010. --Orlady (talk) 19:17, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

I mostly agree, I've made a change based on your comment, is this what you had in mind. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 03:13, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Unlike Nashville or Indianapolis versus their respective counties, Hartsville and Trousdale are no longer treated as distinct entities; I'm going to remove the "clarifier" part as in my opinion it just makes things confusing. DemocraticLuntz (talk) 21:15, 17 December 2013 (UTC)