Talk:Harel Skaat/GA2

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Beloved Freak 12:25, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid the article doesn't meet the GA criteria at this time. There are issues with the prose, manual of style and sources.

The advice given in the previous GA review to get a peer review still stands. I realise that it hasn't had much response, but ideally you'd wait for a more thorough review there before renominating for GA. As you haven't had much response there, I will treat this as more of a peer review and try and be quite detailed in my suggestions. The points mentioned in the checklist are the more glaring problems holding it back from GA right now.

GA review (see here for criteria)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose): b (MoS):
The prose isn't great and in addition to the problems outlined below, could really do with a copyedit by someone uninvolved with the article. It's not terrible but some phrasing is a little awkward and the tone is not encyclopedic in some parts. The lead section does not comply with WP:LEAD.
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
Formatting of citations needs cleaning up and I am a little worried about the reliability of sources used. Wikipedia should definitely not be used as a source.
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
Due to other issues and not being familiar with subject I haven't looked into this. Given his short career, this may well be broad enough.
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
Fairly neutral on the whole, but comes across as being from a fan's point of view in some parts.
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
No problems here.
It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Image use is appropriate, free images that illustrate the article nicely. May be issues with the use of audio files, or at least fair use rationales should be improved a bit.
Overall:
Pass/Fail:
Too many problems to list the article at the moment.

Prose/MoS

Lead

The lead section is too short. Per WP:LEAD, the lead section should summarise the rest of the article, not just be an introduction. At the moment, the only things mentioned in the lead are placing second on Kokhav Nolad, Eurovision, and a general statement about him recording songs. I would expect to see details on his early life and education, a bit more detail on Kokhav Nolad (as that seems to have been his big break), his albums, concerts and personal life. (This is a GA requirement by the way.)
It would help to state upfront what Kokhav Nolad is, eg. the second season of reality talent television show Kokhav Nolad (or whatever you feel appropriate)
In general, citations aren't used much in the lead section. Although this is not a GA requirement, and not all editors agree (so it is up to you), citations are usually only used for statements that are quotes or particularly controversial or contentious. The fact that he finished second on the show is presumably a well-known fact and easily verifiable, so should not need to be cited in the lead. Many readers don't get past the table of contents, so it helps to make it as readable as possible.
"...for which he is perhaps best known." - this is a little vague, and is not attributed to anyone, so it sounds like it is just a Wikipedia editor's opinion.

Biography

Could you think of a better header here? Technically, the whole article is a biography. For that reason, some editors don't like to use the word as a header at all. Personally, I sometimes use "Biography" as a second level header, and separate the sections of the life-story bit under 3rd level headers, to be followed by 2nd level headers for discography, references, external links. (see eg. Missy Higgins)
"Skaat's singing talents garnered attention from an early age" - this sentence, apart from not really being neutral (discussed further down), is possibly not even needed. Imagine taking it out, and is any information actually lost? Similarly, "Music continued to play an important role in Skaat's life as he grew up."
"...he was awarded at least two scholarships for his performances in school-produced musicals" - at least two? Do we not know how many exactly? Seems a bit vague.
"Skaat recorded and released a single ... which was not a success" - is there any more detail on this? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by not being a success. Was it on a major label? Self released? Did it chart?
If "Ha'melech Ha'ba" is a television show, it should be in italics, but I'm not sure if you mean it's a tv show, or if it was broadcast as part of something else?

Kokhav Nolad

If Kokhav Nolad is a television show, that's not clear - "televised singing competition" could mean a one off competition that happened to be broadcast, like sports events are.
Again, it would be helpful to to state that the show is a reality talent show, and to clarify what Pop Idol was.

Concerts, Appearances, and Featured Content

"Despite being upset in the finals, Skaat emerged from Kokhav Nolad with a large fan base, and was especially popular with Israel's young females." - this sentence is unsourced. I'm also not sure what him being upset would have to do with him being successful or not.
"Skaat has toured actively throughout Israel..." - actively, as opposed to what?
"Skaat has frequently appeared at the Zappa Club, popular rock night clubs in Tel Aviv and Herzliya." - this isn't grammatically correct; I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say. Is it missing an "and"? I'm also not sure why this sentence requires three citations.
"To date, Skaat has taken part..." - what date? 15 July 2010? Three years from now when someone's reading it? Again, does this sentence need 3 citations?
"The cast also included Gila Almagor, Oded Teomi in the title role." - a missing "and"?
"Skaat has made numerous appearances..." - "numerous" is vague. It gives me no idea of how many.

Debut Album

Cellcom (Israel) is the title of that article, but the name of the company is surely Cellcom
"...the eponymous titled Harel Skaat" - this is tautology. We know his name, so obviously Harel Skaat is eponymous
Try to avoid using seasonal terms like "spring" and "summer" to specify time. Remember half the world lives in the southern hemisphere where seasons are the opposite, and many countries don't even have four seasons. If you can't be as specific as naming a month, try other terms like "late 2002", "mid-2006"
Did all the singles mentioned from this first album chart? I presume so, being a "string of hits"; please specify how successful they were
"It should be noted that..." - that kind of preamble should never be necessary
"...who integrated violins prominently in some of the songs, including "Veat" and "Im Hu Yelech" to create a lush sound" - according to whom?
"Skaat won numerous awards ..." - how many exactly?
Who, or what, is "Keshet"? Is it a publication? If so, italics.

Dmuyot

Did his record company sue him because of rumours? Or was he actually breaching his contract? Where were these rumours appearing? Why did being unable to record music prevent him from being in Eurovision?
Did any of the singles from this album chart?

Song of the Decade

"In 2009, in an Israeli music poll for the best singer and song of the past decade,..." - just how notable or important is this poll? "an Israeli music poll" could mean a poll put together by a group of Israeli school children. Reading on it becomes a little clearer, but it still doesn't say who has run the poll. I don't know Israeli TV, but on British TV, there are random polls broadcast on all kinds of things all the time, they are pretty meaningless.

Eurovision 2010

You don't need to link Kdam Eurovision twice in such quick succession
"Despite being widely regarded as one of the favorites to win..." - regarded by whom?

After Eurovision

One sentence shouldn't really have its own section, could it be combined with another?
Also, this sounds a little like a news bulletin. What reports? It will also date very quickly.

Overview of Skaat's Music

Some of this is not really directly relevant to Skaat - the mention of all the others, especially when you say he's not really like them.
"...and many others" - this is vague and redundant.
"..there have been generally few hints of the distinctive singing style often associated with that culture in Skaat's music" - according to whom?
"While reviews of his CDs..." - what exactly is meant by CDs? Albums? Singles? Both? Remember, music is available on more than one format.
You mention that he has been widely praised. Are there no detractors? That would seem strange. Certainly in other countries, reality TV stars tend to have quite a lot of negative criticism from serious music press

Personal Life

"As a major celebrity in Israel, Skaat has been the subject of much gossip by the media and public; however, he has been reluctant to discuss issues related to his private life" - this sentence isn't really telling me anything, it's kind of a non-event. Also, it almost implies (inadvertently I'm sure) that he has something to hide and there might be something scandalous lurking in his private life.
"...has held meetings with his fans on several occasions" - what does "meetings" mean exactly?
"Skaat is superstitious. He wore a Hebrew amulet around his neck for good luck during his performance at the Eurovision finals..." - this is trivia, and I would avoid it altogether, but for argument's sake: has he said that he is superstitious or this just an assumption made from the fact that he wore an amulet? There could be many reasons for wearing a particular piece of jewellery. This information is in the source, but it's hard to tell from reading this article.
"...he reportedly purchased an apartment " - sounds like gossip. Did he, or didn't he? If we don't know for sure, it's not important enough to include as speculation.

References

Purely for aesthetic reasons, and to make it a bit easier to read, the references could be placed into two columns. (Not a GA requirement and up to you, but compare to other articles with many references).

Throughout

Try to avoid using non neutral descriptions: Avoid them completely if unsourced, but even when sourced, try not to be too positive about the person in the lead. For example, "Harel Skaat (Hebrew: הראל סקעת) is a popular Israeli singer and songwriter." - "popular" is unattributed. Popular according to whom? How popular exactly? One tip is that you shouldn't be able to tell when reading a Wikipedia article whether or not the person who wrote it actually likes the subject. This article comes across a little as if written by a fan. Statements of praise need to be scrupulously sourced, balanced by any negative views, and in an encyclopedic a tone as possible. For example:
- "Skaat's singing talents garnered attention from an early age."
- "was especially popular with Israel's young females"
- "As a major celebrity in Israel..."
There are some minor manual of style and punctuation problems, eg. missing full stops (periods). I've fixed some I noticed, but you should probably get someone to copyedit or at least proof read before a further nomination. One example is that citations should come directly after punctuation, with no space in between. Another is that titles of albums and television shows should be in italics, songs should be in quote marks; this isn't consistent throughout.
Please have a read over WP:HEADING. Section headings should be in sentence case, not all in capitals. They also should not "explicitly refer to the subject of the article". (eg. "Overview of Skaat's Music" would be better as "musical style" or something.)
Is there a reason the article is in a non-existent category?

Citations, references, verifiability

Kokhav Nolad

The sentence that begins "Skaat quickly emerged as the favorite..." doesn't appear to be backed up by that source. Although I can't read the language, it appears to be a results table or something. Does it actually back up the statement that he was the favorite, that he quickly emerged as such, or that he consistently received praise from the judges?
Do any of the sources cited say that "Hineni Kan" became a staple at his concerts?

Debut Album

Is there some original research in the audio captions? (eg. "...reflects the influence of Western pop and rock music...")

Dmuyot

"Compositionally "Muvan Li Achshav" alternates..." - this is unsourced and sounds like WP:OR.

References

This section could use work in the citation formatting. This is partly a style issue, and partly verifiability:
- All references should have a title, author, date, publisher, accessdate (for online sources), page number (for book sources), isbn (for book sources) where available.
- You don't need to write out the website URL after the link.
- Rather than writing "(in Hebrew)" as part of the title, you can use the |language=Hebrew parameter of the citation template.
- None of the citations should be bare URLs
- One of the templates you've used is broken as it reads cite web|url=http://www.aroma.co.il/en/About/Ourpressroom/AnewsingleforHarelSkat/tabid/824/Default.aspx%7Ctitle=A etc
The actual sources used need to be checked to make sure they are reliable. It is hard for me to do this as I don't speak Hebrew, so it would be worth asking someone who does speak Hebrew, and who is experienced with WP:RS (for example, has written articles that have passed WP:FAC) to check the sources
One thing for sure: Wikipedia is not a reliable source and must not be used in the references at all. Not English, Hebrew, or any other version. The fact that Wikipedia is one of your sources leads me to worry about all of the others. These would need to be properly checked at a future GA review.
The reference currently at no. 16 (Israstage) is dead.

Files

The two audio files need work on their fair use rationales. One of them has been tagged for being a non-standard format. I'm not sure how important that is, you could perhaps ask the person that tagged it for clarification. File:Mashehu M'meni.ogg's rationale starts off by mentioning the wrong song title. I'm also not sure that the commentary in the article warrants the files being used under fair use. There seems to be more song information in the rationales than is in the article. Try and add some of that to the article, with WP:RS of course.
Images appear to all be free and appropriately licensed.

All in all, there is too much to be fixed here to put the article on hold. I can see you've put a lot of work into it, but it's just not quite there yet. Please don't be discouraged by all the things I've listed, it can be done! Just take your time with it. There is no rush. Hopefully you will get more comments at peer review. Also, if you haven't already done so, have a thorough read of other articles about pop singers that are already GA and FA. That will help you to see what might be missing with this one. Please ask me if you have any questions at all.

Reply

Thanks for your message. Absolutely you can leave your message here. I would appreciate any feedback I can get. Thank you very much for your help. Hjquazimoto (talk) 14:45, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I was in two minds over whether to post this here, at the second GA review, or on the talk page itself, since the review is over. I will post it here, since it's a direct response. This is User:Hjquazimoto's responses posted from User talk:Belovedfreak (with some bits cut out that aren't directly relevant to review!). I will reply to each underneath. Beloved Freak 15:06, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Responses from Hjquazimoto

Files

Belovedfreak: The two audio files need work on their fair use rationales. One of them has been tagged for being a non-standard format. I'm not sure how important that is, you could perhaps ask the person that tagged it for clarification. File:Mashehu M'meni.ogg's rationale starts off by mentioning the wrong song title. I'm also not sure that the commentary in the article warrants the files being used under fair use. There seems to be more song information in the rationales than is in the article. Try and add some of that to the article, with WP:RS of course.

Hjquazimoto: I've tried to address this but my understanding of what constitutes a compelling fair use rationale is not clear. I've read other examples (Michael Jackson) and tried to use this as a model. I've eliminated the link to the Mashehu M'meni.ogg in the article.

I haven't been working with audio files for very long, so I'm not sure what the "non-standard" problem is. The main thing is to make sure that the article discusses the song in question, otherwise someone will argue that it doesn't qualify for fair use because it's merely "decorative" (like an image) and just there as an added extra.--Beloved Freak 15:38, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Belovedfreak: "Skaat has frequently appeared at the Zappa Club, popular rock night clubs in Tel Aviv and Herzliya." - this isn't grammatically correct; I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say. Is it missing an "and"? I'm also not sure why this sentence requires three citations.... Skaat has taken part... Again, does this sentence need 3 citations?

Hjquazimoto:I've reworded the sentence. I felt the references were needed to support my statement that Skaat appeared frequently and that he has appeared at three Festigals I haven't found a source that directly states that he's appeared in three Festigals.

Well, that's ok. I see there are some other sentences with multiple citations. Try to avoid if possible, but if it's a case like the one you just explained, then it's ok. Another option some people use is to combine them into one citation that leads to a "notes" section, this is especially appropriate if there is any explanatory text you could add that would otherwise interrupt the flow. That would be a possibility here since many readers won't be familiar with Festigals, and we don't seem to have a relevant article to wikilink to. It's up to you though, the text there is clear enough, so you may not want to expand on that.--Beloved Freak 15:38, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Belovedfreak: Is there a reason the article is in a non-existent category?

Hjquazimoto: I'm not sure what you mean.

I meant Category:Jewish Singers; I didn't realise this was a typo. It has since been fixed to read Category:Jewish singers.--Beloved Freak 15:38, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Belovedfreak: The actual sources used need to be checked to make sure they are reliable.

Hjquazimoto: I've tried to stick with the most reputable sites in Israel (Ynet, Haaretz, etc.). I think it would be great if someone with expertise in Israeli culture and language would review my article. There are different ways of translating the language.

As I said, I really can't help you with this. Perhaps ask at the Israel project for someone just to check out your sources? Even if you're fairly happy with them yourself it will help if a GA reviewer (like me!) asks what makes them reliable, and you have a second person to back you up. Also, maybe look at the featured and good articles listed at Wikiproject Israel, look for the main contributors to those, or the person that nominated them for WP:FAC (you can see that by looking on the talkpage, there should be a link to the FAC), and if they are still active, you could ask them to comment as presumably they will be more familiar with Israeli and/or Hebrew sources.Beloved Freak 15:38, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hjquazimoto: I would like to comment on a few of your suggestions.

Belovedfreak: As a major celebrity in Israel, Skaat has been the subject of much gossip by the media and public; however, he has been reluctant to discuss issues related to his private life" - this sentence isn't really telling me anything, it's kind of a non-event. Also, it almost implies (inadvertently I'm sure) that he has something to hide and there might be something scandalous lurking in his private life.

Hjquazimoto: The gossip and speculation regards his perceived sexual preference. I've decided to eliminate any mention of it.

Well, that's the conclusion I immediately jumped to when reading it. This is a difficult area, and if he hasn't come out, then we shouldn't be insinuating it. However, if there is significant coverage in reliable sources, then we also shouldn't be white washing it. First and foremost, we have to remember that he is a living person (and that we take WP:BLP very seriously), and he is famous for his music. His private life is just that: private. On the other hand, we write about what has been covered significantly in reliable sources. A am completely unfamiliar with this guy, so it's hard for me to comment, but it would help to know what's been said. Discount anything from any gossip magazines or fan forums or things like that. I think if journalists are saying things along the lines of "Hmm, I wonder if he's gay", then we shouldn't be adding that in. If (WP:RS) journalists are saying "Here's this guy who has been very successful since his TV show etc. and about whom there is endless speculation regarding his sexuality..." - then that's something worth including, especially if it's coming up again and again. I recently wrote about Australian singer Missy Higgins. This is slightly different because she's come out, but it's also a similar situation because there had been a lot of speculation, so I had to work out whether or not that speculation should be mentioned. In the end I did, because there weren't just individual journalists making allusions to her sexuality, the newspapers were actually reporting on the media speculation itself. I hope this makes sense.--Beloved Freak 15:38, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Belovedfreak: Did any of the singles from this album chart?

Hjquazimoto: They all charted, and I believe at least five have gone to number one on one of the two major radio charts in Israel (Reshet Gimmel and Galgalatz). The problem is I haven't been able to find any reliable archived Israeli music charts for either of the stations. I'm sure they exist but I've had no luck finding them. I've raised the issue at a couple of Israeli music forums and I've left a message on the WikiProject Israel, but I haven't received much feedback. This is why I have had to be vague in some of my descriptions. I've tried to include at least some documentation to clarify the article. I know for a fact that "Milim" was number one on the Reshet Gimmel chart for five weeks because I checked the charts on a weekly basis, but if I were to include a link to a reputable website, it would just show the current chart. It's the same problem with the annual charts.

That's a problem because this kind of imformation would be needed for GA. Not necessarily great detail, but it would need to be covered a little bit, with reliable sources. I don't know what to suggest. Perhaps try asking at the album project or the discography project? There may be people who have written featured lists on artist's discographies, and if any of the albums or singles charted in Israel, they will have needed to find reliable sources for those statistics.Beloved Freak 15:38, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Belovedfreak: You mention that he has been widely praised. Are there no detractors? That would seem strange. Certainly in other countries, reality TV stars tend to have quite a lot of negative criticism from serious music press

Hjquazimoto: Yes there are. He has many, but most have focused on his conservative song selection, his sometimes overly emotional singing style, and other things. I've read a lot of articles on him and I've yet to read any writer claiming he can't sing, and even some of his detractors have mentioned that he's a charismatic performer. I've added more information on this. Hopefully this helps balance things out.Hjquazimoto (talk) 04:01, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's ok, you don't need to find any terrible reviews of him, but just make sure you keep it balanced so that it doesn't sound like a fan's written it!

I hope I've addressed all your responses.--Beloved Freak 15:38, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reply

Thanks again. I appreciate your generous feedback and perspective on some of the issues related to my article. I think the biggest hurdles will be: 1. finding a good source for the chart information that the article really needs; and 2. somehow having someone with expertise in Hebrew/English translation and Israeli culture to peer review the article. I may contact the Israeli Broadcasting Authority in an attempt to solve the first problem. If that doesn't work, I will just have to wait until someone comes along who can provide this information (the same with the peer review). I think I've done just about all that I can do with this article. It's probably why the other articles I've seen on Israeli singers at Wikipedia are in such pitiful shape. At any rate, I think the Skaat article is an improvement now from the way it used to be before I started. Take care. Hjquazimoto (talk) 19:10, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome, and well done; it definitely is much better than when you started! Good luck with further developing it, and don't forget the option of listing it at peer review to get further feedback. I'm a big fan of getting as many people as possible to give their opinion!--Beloved Freak 19:25, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]