Talk:Hardcore dance music

The state of 'hardcore' on Wikipedia

a lot of the hardcore related pages on wikipedia are a mess. bouncy techno and breakbeat hardcore are fair enough although could do with a few fixes. freeform hardcore needs a lot more info on it. the gabber music article is a right mess, as is hardcore techno. speedcore is fair enough atm but terrorcore needs more info too. also, can anyone give a proper reference to the link between new beat and hardcore, apart from the fact it appears on the hardcore page of ishkur's guide? --MilkMiruku 11:44, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Even using Ishkur as an example, New Beat doesn't link to the other hardcore things on his site (more or less the same things on the Wiki hardcore footer). Without New Beat on the Wiki footer, I'd say that it is looking fairly tight with all those things relating / influencing one another. The Electronic body music article lists New Beat - a likely better home. I really don't know too much on those other things sufficiently - except for breakbeat hardcore and happy hardcore (the early breakbeat stuff). --Revolt 14:02, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

maybe you can help me with a couple of queries then; how exactly are breakbeat hardcore and hardcore techno related? i always assumed the latter has a harsher sound generally with obviously less breakbeats, but former's article doesn't mention the latter at all while the latter's article says it was the progenitor of happy hardcore. (the article needs a good cleanup at somepoint anyway). --MilkMiruku 20:26, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Basically, what was "hardcore" in England (in the early 1990s) was not the same "hardcore" outside the country. Hardcore meaning breakbeat music in England - with breakbeat hardcore as a result becoming a newish term created to distinguish this music.

In Europe however - hardcore techno is just that - it was a harder varient of techno. I think that's what the Alternate styles of Hardcore techno (part of the hardcore techno article) is trying to say - that at one time there was two types of music called "Hardcore".

The only relation is that they were both at one time called "hardcore" - but were different music - and the progression lines back then are different.

• "Breakbeat hardcore" creating darkcore, happycore and jungle in England

• "Hardcore techno" creating things I guess on the industrial or gabba side happening outside of England

Now - the main relation between breakbeat hardcore is 100% happy hardcore. Just as "hardcore" meant "breakbeat" in the old days (in England) - happy hardcore (or happycore) meant "happy breakbeat" - just as darkcore meant "dark breakbeat".

So happy hardcore also gets highly complex. If you take a look at the Dutch happy hardcore article [1] it does not relate to the English version [2] - it has different progression lines - though none are strictly wrong. Basically, the same term applies to different sounding music that again has it own evolution.

Using Ishkur (which isn't the Gospel regarding this area) but just for the purpose of audio samples only. Link [3]

In the "Hardcore > Oldskool" area: -

Tracks 2, 3, 6 are correct and are "English breakbeat hardcore" of 1992.

Tracks 1, 8 are however what is "English happy hardcore" of 1995.

These things musically relate as mentioned above. (PS: none of the UK "happy breakbeat bouncy techno" evolution is on Ishkur - though he links them on his family tree but totally fails with the samples which have no connection. Try this link for 1996 audio [4] - Rolling breakbeats with offbeats bouncy techno stabs into a piano hook melody.)

Now in his "Hardcore > Happy" area: -

Tracks 2 and 9 are typical German / Dutch based "happy hardcore" sounds of 1995. If you compare that to the English above of 1995 - it is 100% a different beast - and has no relation. So this is why happy hardcore has different definitions around the world.

Now again in his "Hardcore > Happy": -

Tracks 3, 6 are actually "English happy hardcore" but due to them being from 1998 are musically different to the above English stuff of 1992 and 1995 mentioned above. There is no breakbeat - the breakbeat side of things died around 1996/7 - along with its UK rave scene following. If anything it sounds like the German / Dutch stuff.

Hope that helps? :-D

--Revolt 10:43, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

cool, cheers very much for the info. i'll check out those samples this evening. so a couple of things from that (i don't know how many you might be able to answer though). would it be acceptable to remove the paragraph regarding happy hardcore from the hardcore techno article? does anyone call older hardcore techno "old skool hardcore" (in the same manner i know breakbeat hardcore is refered to in the uk today)? does the "New Style Hardcore" refer to stuff like Enzyme? i've been getting into a load of their releases recently but i've a friend who's well into them and refers to their sound as mainly being 'darkcore', as do a number of sites online. is this related to the old uk stylee darkcore or just a coincidence? of also, how 'correct' is it to have hardcore techno in the industrial music footer template. i've been thinking of replaceing that with the hardcore template. ah, it's good to finally get these articles ironed out --MilkMiruku 13:03, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

stuff like Enzyme? refers to their sound as mainly being 'darkcore', as do a number of sites online. is this related to the old uk stylee darkcore or just a coincidence?

Darkcore (I talk of the early 1990s) is getting to the hardcore once meant breakbeat in England thing again - that meaning "dark breakbeat" (and happycore for "happy breakbeat"). Darkcore, an old shortlived 1993 English style from Top Buzz and that - moody haunting minimalistic breakbeat with deep sub bass. That exact evolution goes into Drum & Bass. Check these links as there's various audio samples for this darkcore breakbeat. >[5] and [6]

If there is recent things coming out of Europe called "Darkcore" I would assume it just happens to share the same term but could perhaps have a loose musical relation to the old English style. I really could not say about Enzyme and most things of today what they are.

i'm pretty sure now that the european usage of 'darkcore' relates to a derivative of nu skool gabber, kind of like hardstyle but that incorperates influences from rhythmic noise and a bit of glitch instead of hard trance --MilkMiruku 05:14, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Really there's few people speak of darkcore / happycore in the true old form unless they were around back then. The music has long since gone. It's getting to a stage there's less and less names for all this stuff and names will become more duplicated in the future - but sound different.

would it be acceptable to remove the paragraph regarding happy hardcore from the hardcore techno article?

Unsure - certainly English happy hardcore (breakbeat) is not a sub-variant of hardcore techno BUT happy hardcore has a load of different meanings all over the place in different countries. They could easily be talking about "happy gabber" (happy meaning melodius and hardcore meaning gabber), things like "I Wanna Be A Hippy" type-stuff, as opposed to something else.

how 'correct' is it to have hardcore techno in the industrial music footer template.

I do think there is some relation from its very early origins. I am however no industrial fan - so have no idea. --Revolt 14:46, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Inconsistencies between articles

• numerous between happy hardcore and 4-beat
• hardcore techno and gabber music both give We Have Arrived (song) by Mescalinum United as a prime example track

can anyone see any else? i've cleaned up a lot of stuff over the last few days and can thankfully say that i pretty much understand what the different uses of the term 'hardcore' relate to now --MilkMiruku 04:59, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

can anyone see any else?

Trancecore / Freeform AFAIK should be one entity. It's somewhat like the argument going on at Jungle / Drum and Bass. (Trancecore / Freeform are musically different however - freefrom is basically an evolving trancecore). I'm actually for Jungle / Drum and Bass being on their own pages.

Cheapcore - Just seems a term for cheap produced music rather than a certain type of music that has lineage etc. Never heard of it but these kind of things could go into the main hardcore dance music article than have there own pages.

* numerous between happy hardcore and 4-beat

Now, 4-beat / happy hardcore is also the exact same thing just an alternative name but this however only relates to the kind of "happy hardcore" as in English breakbeat (with darkcore being the twin brother). The exact breakbeat rave music stopped around ten years ago - just like darkcore.

Really it should be in one article but one problem is "happy hardcore" is quite complex and means different things nowadays to people, depending when and where you are. There isn't much evidence of this on the Wiki happy hardcore article however, with the page reflecting the old UK side of things - which is fine.

I would say most see happy hardcore as being the stuff on the Ishkur player - stuff with lots and lots of vocals and fast uptempo beats - rather than an old breakbeat rave style that's quite different musically. Both have their own individual fanbase.

Happy hardcore is like an obsolete term in the UK, even though the term is still likely used to describe new music, as it's just such a popular term for all kinds of things. The UK stuff from the late 1990s got much bad media press for being rather naff, whilst the old breakbeat stuff didn't come into things - it had little or no musical similarity and was no longer produced. "UK hardcore" was created as a new musical direction around the 2000's.

--Revolt 19:43, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Links

Removed the links, they both seemed link spam vaguely related to the article. Syrion 11:04, 1 April 2007 (UTC)