Talk:Hard Yakka

Etymology of "Yakka"

IP editors 115.42.1.230 and 115.42.6.7 (whom I judge likely to be the same person) have raised questions about the reliability of the etymology of "yakka" in this article, and have put forward an alternative, South Asian origin, which I have deleted as uncited for now but which would be interesting if substantiated.

There are several questions and claims that I would like to separate out here. For convenience, I will tag them as "IP" and "Me", based on who made the relevant revisions, but I have no stake at all in the "Me" claims and am happy to be persuaded otherwise!

1. Me: Yakka "work" derives from an Australian Aboriginal language. (This was already present, citing the ADB, but the article's phrasing seemed to me to misrepresent that source.)
2. Me: Yakka "work" specifically derives from the Yagara language. (I added this on the strength of the Turrbal language article, which cites the OED.)
3. IP: Yakka "work" is attested at least as early as 1840. (No citation is given for this.)
4. IP: Yakka "work" is attested in The Bulletin in 1892. (At first uncited, the citation now given for this is The Bulletin of 19 November 1892. It fits the ADB's "late nineteenth century" date.)
5. IP: Claiming that yakka is of Aboriginal origin is cultural appropriation. (This is stated in the edit summary rather than article text. I may have misunderstood exactly what is being labelled "cultural appropriation", but I infer that it's something to do with the next point.)
6. IP: Yakka is of Indian or Sri Lankan origin. (This was added as an uncited claim.)
7. IP: Yakka matches place names in South Australia, India, and Sri Lanka. (A mere observation, in comparison to the preceding claim.)
8. IP: The ADB is an unreliable source. (Tagged as such at first, it is now called out in the article text, pointing to the bibliography given for its entry.)

I do not have access to The Bulletin (#4) nor the OED (#2). Can someone confirm what either or both of them say? If the OED is confirmed, it should be cited in this article, but I'm not comfortable adding it on the say-so of another Wikipedia article.

For #7, I don't see how this is relevant. Is it a wink and a nudge to #6, trying to dodge needing support by not stating it outright?

To #8, I would observe that firstly, the sources are for the whole biographical entry, not for the single etymological note that it contains. Secondly, the scare quotes in "anonymous 'typescript' with 'no date' and 'private information'" are unwarranted. Biographical information is often found in such sources, by its nature. The compiler is responsible for evaluating the quality of the information before setting it down as fact under their own byline. We may find reason to contest their evaluation, but I don't see any such reason here. -- Perey (talk) 06:38, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Revisions

The OED suggestion that the term Yakka is derived from the Yagara term "yaga" appears to have the same origin in Trioli’s dubiously-based speculation in the ADB. The two sources and claims in the Wikipedia Turrbal language article are used in a cyclical argument but are all based on the one speculative and dubiously-based source. None of the sources claiming this origin cite any record at all for the claim let alone any authoritative source. Speculative claims need to be identified as such and statements based on such appropriately qualified.

Reference for 1840 date of use of Yakka added to article.

'Cultural appropriation' may refer to the company’s attempts to promote (if not create) and cash-in on supposed Aboriginal Australian connections to their brand. The source of Trioli’s claims in the ADB is the company.

Based on dates of recorded use, the Yagara word "yaga" may be the loanword.115.42.2.6 (talk) 05:36, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I’m just now coming back to this discussion, not having seen this reply for nearly four months. I suppose it’s unlikely that the IP editor who wrote it will still be about. Even so, I’ve addressed the following to them, or as if to them. But I would be happy for anyone to come along and answer questions, fill in information, or just weigh in with a fresh perspective!

The OED suggestion that the term Yakka is derived from the Yagara term "yaga" appears to have the same origin in Trioli’s dubiously-based speculation in the ADB. And what is your basis for this claim? What makes it “appear” that this is the case? As I said, I don’t have access to the OED. Can you tell us what it actually says?

None of the sources claiming this origin cite any record at all for the claim let alone any authoritative source. Perhaps not, but there is a difference between wanting our sources to tell us their sources, and demeaning the authors of said sources with snide remarks and scare quotes. Sure, it would be great if Cecile Trioli, or the Australian National Dictionary Centre, had pointed us to an authority on the Yagara language. But they did not. Given this, we need to decide whether to take them at their word as biographers and academics. If not, we should delete the material outright, not keep it with caveats and insinuations of unreliability.

Me, I’m in favour of believing them. Who’s more likely to have rightly identified the word’s origin: writers for the dictionaries cited, or an unregistered Wikipedia editor? (Further reading: Wikipedia:Anti-elitism)

Reference for 1840 date of use of Yakka added to article. Excellent, thank you. It’s a pity that they say the word occurs in 1840, but only quote the 1892 Bulletin article and a 21st-century example.

'Cultural appropriation' may refer to the company’s attempts… Forgive me if I’ve made an unwarranted assumption, but I had guessed that you, 115.42.2.6, were the same person as 115.42.6.7, based on the extremely similar IP addresses and the same interest in and position on this topic. In which case, couldn’t you tell us exactly what you meant by “cultural appropriation”, instead of saying what it may refer to?

The source of Trioli’s claims in the ADB is the company. On what do you base this? Unlike Wikipedia, the ADB article has no inline citations to say which parts of it come from which of its sources.

Based on dates of recorded use, the Yagara word "yaga" may be the loanword. Woah, slow down there, Spring-Heeled Jack! How do you make the jump to that conclusion? What is it about the dates that gives you that idea?

And where is it loaned from? Not India or Sri Lanka again, I hope. So a similar-sounding word or place name (where?) exists in some South Asian language (which?). So what? It’s not proof of the English word’s etymology, it’s just a coincidence, and claiming otherwise is a tired old trope in etymology. -- Perey (talk) 15:33, 18 November 2023 (UTC)