Jump to content

Talk:Hans Eysenck/Archive 1

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

Comments

I find it rather hilarious that people have associated racism to that chart rather than, I don't know, pregnant mother's intake of fish; indexed by culture? Or good dietary standards indexed by class(I know that you idiots will contradict me, but that was the social ladder of the time)

There IS science there, you just have to have a brain to see it, he merely stated there was a correlation, not that there was causation.

Poverty and the "meat" one must eat when they are truly destitute?

Soul Food?

Does that make the graph shape up to you?

Really it makes me sick that you people are willing to call him a Nazi just because you happen to be so racially sensitive that you end up looking like self-hating rascists.

Oh, wait, American, I see. 75.173.64.10 (talk) 06:08, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I've been looking at the pages of eugenics-supportive people, and this is yet another that seems quite POV. He disagreed with the nazis? It's a bit peculiar to state that without further explanation, as what he is famous for is that he actually agrees with the nazis in a couple of ways most people don't!

Really? Please provide a verbatim quotation and reference. Paul Magnussen 19:26, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Next line should be sufficient. -v

For some reason, the intro does not mention that he was a life-long member of the British Eugenics Society [1]

I went through his autobiography recently, and he certainly was against the Nazis. He had a Jewish step-father. His father tried to get him to join the SS, but he refused - it turned out that his father's mother was Jewish, and his father was trying to protect him. And so on. Charles Matthews 10:27, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Also, he abandoned his university education, family, homeland and language rather than acquiesce to Hitlerism by joining the SS. He was happily married to a Jewess to the end of his life. In fact, his biographer (Gibson) writes that he was so repelled by pre-war German culture that he even wrote to his father English, though the latter barely understood it. Seems like a strange Nazi to me... Paul Magnussen 19:26, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Examining the text from top to bottom: "Brilliant" teacher?

That seems to be the consensus of his students (see e.g. Nyborg, The Scientific Study of General Intelligence). Have you a dissenting opinion? Paul Magnussen 19:26, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

"He did not hesitate to publish material that many people have found ideologically, financially or politically inconvenient, or otherwise objectionable." Sounds like a line from a favourable eulogy to me.

It isn't: I wrote it. Paul Magnussen 19:26, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

It paints him as the brave independent scholar, is that really so obvious? Quite a lot of people see him as a despicable racist, after all, so I should think that description depends on you Point Of View.

Encyclopædias are concerned with facts, not popularity contests. If you know of a statement of Eysenck's that qualifies him as a despicable racist, please quote it, and the source. Meanwhile, here is a statement of his that seems to bear on what you're saying:
A ‘racist’, to me, is one who views other races with hatred, distrust and dislike; one who wishes to subordinate them and keep them in an inferior position. An ‘egalitarian’, to me, is one who feels friendly to other races, likes their members and feels favourably inclined towards them, one who has no wish to appear in a superior position towards them, or dominate them in any way. These attitudes are not logically related to a demonstration that different racial groups are, or are not, innately equal with respect to psychological abilities, personality traits, temperamental characteristics, motivational indices, or what not; I am not a racist for believing it possible that negroes may have special innate gifts for certain athletic events, such as sprints, or for certain musical forms of expression; I am not a racist for taking seriously the empirical demonstration that Maoris are superior on tests of verbal fluency to whites. Nor am I a racist for seriously considering the possibility that the demonstrated inferiority of American negroes on tests of intelligence may, in part, be due to genetic causes; I would be a racialist if I did not consider very seriously, and without bias, all alternative hypotheses suggested to account for the observed facts, or if I deduced from the facts such conclusions as that segregation was justified.
(from Race, Intelligence and Education, p.11) Paul Magnussen 19:26, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Eugenicist qualifies as despicable by me, and the British Eugenics Society was undoubtedly racist. -v
“undoubtedly”?
‘I agree that the only reasonable thing is to be noncommittal on the race question — that’s not the central issue, and it would be a great mistake to be sidetracked into all the emotional upsets that go on in discussions of racial differences. We should be quite careful to dissociate eugenics from it — eugenics’ real concern should be with individual differences.’ (Raymond Cattell, Interview in ‘The Eugenics Bulletin’).
If you so choose, you’re free to believe that Hitler endorsed eugenics, therefore endorsing eugenics automatically makes someone a Nazi; just as you’re free to believe that Mussolini ate spaghetti, therefore eating spaghetti automatically makes someone a Fascist. But none of this has anything to do with a Wikipedia article on H.J. Eysenck, beyond the fairly uninteresting historical datum of what names he was called by people whose preferred mode of debate is name-calling. Paul Magnussen 22:15, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

"Eysenck was not shy, in later work, of giving attention to parapsychology and astrology." Again, the brave frontiersman. Since when was "not shy" appropriate for an encyclopedia? Vintermann 10:20, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

There is a big difference between being a racist and being open to differences between races based on scientific evidence. Which was what Eysenck basically was criticised for. However, his views on this were notably changed by the end of his life, but his view that one should support anything that was found in a scientific matter never changed. Even if it was against the public opinion. This is the main theme of his autobiography. --218.215.9.135 02:38, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure that the piece about the sensation-seeking scale really belongs here. This was, surely, the work of Zuckerman rather than Eysenck. Indeed, along with Costa and McCrae, Zuckerman may be seen as a major rival to Eysenck. His "Alternative Five" model of personality is a different model to Eysenck's P-E-N model. Cardamom 195.93.21.1 17:18, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

I am relative newcomer to Wikipaedia, so was not quite sure how to put in sub-headings. I now see that this can be done putting in the appropriate number of equals signs, as explained elsewhere in Wikipaedia. I also see that placing tildes is an easy way to sign your contributions.195.93.21.1 17:15, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Eysenck assaulted?

From Race and intelligence, note #48, referencing Gottfredson, L. S. (2005). “Suppressing intelligence research: Hurting those we intend to help”, N. A. Cummings Destructive trends in mental health: The well-intentioned path to harm. New York: Taylor and Francis. ISBN.

"Gottfredson 2005a summarizes the history of harassment and violence in this area: ... 'Eysenck, for example, [was] physically assaulted by protesters during a public lecture at the London School of Economics.' " -- This sort of experience is hardly usual for scientists and is therefore worthy of note. Can anyone who knows something about this incident please add a line or two about it to the article? Thanks. -- 201.78.233.162 16:01, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

There's an eye-witness account in Race, Intelligence and Bias in Academe by Roger Pearson (2nd edition, Scott-Townsend (1997), ISBN 1-878465-23-6), pp.34–38. It's too long to summarise easily. Paul Magnussen (talk) 22:13, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Conversion therapy

I have undone the insertion of the section on conversion therapy, pending further discussion, as unsubstantiated.

This section was based on the allegations one one gay gentleman; the fact that the allegations were made is substantiated by the references given, but their content is not. However, the allegations are (in that revision) presented as fact, despite the hostility manifested by the term "psycho-Nazi".

By contrast, I refer to pp.194–195 of Eysenck's Fact and Fiction in Psychology (Penguin, 1965)):

'I cannot pretend to be devoid of feelings of revulsion for homosexual practices, but equally I cannot feel that these feelings of mine should necessaraily form the basis for other people's conduct. As long as no public harm is done, it does not indeed seem right to punish people for deviations from the normal sexual patteern, which are either inherited and, therefore, outside their control, or initiated in public schools, in the army, or in prison, under conditions for which the homosexual himself can hardly be held responsible. Indeed, it would seem wrong for society to condemn the homosexual but to do nothing about the breeding grounds of homosexual practices. [...]

Neither am I very much impressed by the argument about national decadence. From the reign of Queen Elizabeth I to the reign of Queen Victoria, the English were a byword on the Continent for their strong homosexual tendencies. At the same time, however, England was becoming the most powerful country in the world.'

Paul Magnussen (talk) 16:22, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Mainstream Science on Intelligence

I have reverted an edit to this section by WeijiBaikeBianji which contained the rationale: the article "Mainstream Science on Intelligence" makes no specific mention of the book The Bell Curve.

The Bell Curve is mentioned in the first sentence! (see reproduction given in its Wikipedia entry.)

Furthermore, in his book Intelligence: A New Look (ISBN 1-56000-360-X), P.213, Eysenck explicitly states: "The document was drafted to set the record straight after the media's onslaught on the Herrnstein and Murray Book "The Bell Curve" […]". Paul Magnussen (talk) 21:27, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

I added references for Eysenck's views of the book The Bell Curve.

Since 2006, this article included boilerplate text referring to all 52 of the signatories of the statement "Mainstream Science on Intelligence. Several of the signers are living persons, and the boilerplate paragraph was not accurate in regard to all of them. I looked up Eysenck's personal views, adding references, and updated the paragraph. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 16:13, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit war over Eysenck's nationality

In view of the recent flurry of edits over Eysenck's nationality, I have asked his son Darren to clarify the matter. His reply (11 April 2011) in full:

"My dad was definitely British of German origin. He became naturalised in the thirties."

Since there were only a few months left in the thirties when war broke out, and since a German would presumably not be allowed to take British nationality during the war, this indicates that Hans Eysenck took British nationality before WWII. I hope this settles it. Paul Magnussen (talk) 18:16, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe that this (obviously good faith) recollection does settle it. My own father fought in the British forces in WWII, but I would not necessarily assume that I knew details of his life in the 1930s, or of his army career during the war, though he often told us stories of Normandy. Contrary to the view that Eysenck was already naturalised, in his autobiography, he (Eysenck) writes:
Eysenck makes it clear that he was an "enemy alien" and a German in the early part of the war, at least. He explicitly states that he had not been in Britain long enough to qualify for naturalisation. (I think that at least five years of residence would have been required.) I'm not sure why you think this is a major issue, though, or even an issue at all. He was clearly an anti-Nazi (which is perhaps important in the light of later attacks on his character) and was apparently allowed to go free in London at an extremely sensitive time.
Eysenck also states that he was not British in 1940:
I can find no evidence for your suggestion that naturalisation was suspended during the war. My best guess is that Eysenck became a British subject during the 1940s or early 50s. In the end, though, what does it matter? His views on the subject of national identity are ones with which I can completely relate:
Time to tune into Wallander on BBC 4 (Swedish with English subtitles) by VPN from UTC-07 to Bournemouth. Boppet (talk) 04:51, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
Good points. Possibly the naturalisation paperwork still exists somewhere — if anyone cares enough to find it. Paul Magnussen (talk) 16:06, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Material on Pioneer Fund added by Maunus

This material seems to me to be a) POV, containing phrases such as 'recipients of Pioneer Fund grants reads partly like a "Who's Who" of scientific and political racism', and b) irrelevant, since such comments belong (if anywhere) in the article on the Pioneer Fund and not Eysenck's biography.

• I have attempted to revert this edit, but my revert has been overridden.

• To avoid an edit war, I have therefore requested adjudication by an independent referee. Paul Magnussen (talk) 20:27, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

You don't need to request adjudication when your change is reverted, you just need to start discussing on the talkpage - you can see how it works in WP:BRD. Also I didn't add the material I readded it after you removed it without giving an explanation here first. It is a fair discussion whether his relation to the pioneer fund is relevant - perhaps it isn't that relevant in the big picture, that will have to be decided based on what reliable sources about him say. I reacted mostly to the way you rephrased and moved the issue so that it no longer made sense. In your phrasing there was no way to know why his relation to the pioneer fund was seen as controversial, because you just called it a fund that does hereditarian research. That is of course not the reason it is controversial - it is controversial because it does hereditarian research of a particular kind and has frequently been described as promoting scientific racism. It makes no sense to mention his controversial relation with the fund and then shy out of saying why it is considered conrtoversial. You also moved the mention of the fund from the section of race and intelligence to the section on tobacco research which makes sense since the fund didn't fund his research on tobacco but on race.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:32, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Eugenics

In Intelligence: A New Look, pp 189-194, Eysenck says that he was a member of the council of the Eugenics Society. He strongly defends eugenics and categorically asserts that it has nothing to do with Nazism. Can this be added to the article using that source? There are more references to Eysenck and eugenics, they seem to mainly be from his critics. Itsmejudith (talk) 08:00, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Eysenck and the extreme right

The following statements in this section were all unreferenced. Please provide references for all of these before restoring the section:

1) After his Publications about Psychoanalysis and Intelligence, Eysenck became a supporter of the extreme right.

2) Eysenck supported the Far-right Thule Society and published articles in the german newspaper National Zeitung and Nation und Europa.

3) In the National Zeitung he reproached Sigmund Freud for alleged trickiness and lack of frankness by reference to Freud's jewish background.

4) Additionally, he wrote the preface to the book "Das unvergängliche Erbe" by Pierre Krebs, a French author of the extreme right, which was also published by the Thule Society.

5a) Eysenck called the equality of humans an 'untenable ideological doctrine'.

Please provide references for all of these.

5b) Therefore he was criticised as 'racist'. [26] [27] [28]

certainly few would deny that Eysenck was criticised thus, so that may pass.

As to

6) In his Book "Die Ungleichheit der Menschen" [29] pulished in 1989, he argued that "amerikanische Neger" (american negros) are genetically less gifted than whites:

"Die Ungleichheit der Menschen" is merely a German translation of "The Inequality of Man" (Maurice Temple Smith, ISBN 0-8511-7050-1 (UK) or EdITS, ISBN 0-912736-16-X (US)), so a page reference to either of these will suffice.

Furthermore, the terms "extreme right" and "extreme left" have become so confused and emotionally loaded as to become effectively meaningless. The fact that person a views person b as right-wing has no place in an encyclopædia (except possibly to the extent that person a's views have). Some Americans view Bill Clinton as being of the extreme left — which would probably have amused Karl Marx considerably if he'd had a sense of humour.

Paul Magnussen (talk) 23:22, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Futhermore:

This posting is to invite to continue the discussion, with those who added to Eysenck’s biography, the suggestion that he was part of the extreme far right. I shall add to this discussion by stating that Hans Eysenck was never part of any so called “extreme far right.” Nor was he a part of any other “extreme” other than having an extremely high IQ. As a scientist he deplored Freud’s lack of scientific method. I have not seen the quotations from the National Zeitung etc, so would Mauris please provide the exact reference, or a copy of the full quotations. If Eysenck supported the Thule Society, please give the evidence that he did so. If he wrote that “the equality of humans was an untenable ideological doctrine” did he not mean that “equality of DNA” is vastly different from “equality of opportunity?” I know of no one who believes that all humans are biologically equal. I was a student and colleague of Eysenck, and knowing him, I can attest he was never a ‘racist.’ He wrote that the difference between black and white Americans was based on a very small significant difference in IQ scores. His writings were based on two over lapping Gaussian curves with a small difference in the means. At that time, IQ was considered to be genetically determined, therefore the small difference in the overlapping curves provided evidence for the difference between the two groups. His critics have tried to make the public believe he was writing that all black Americans have lower IQs than every white American, which he knew was absurd. Please will those holding a different view, present their facts. Sirswindon (talk) 05:11, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I am not going to argue this. I reverted the removals because they were made based on spurious claims of their being unsourced. I don't care about the inclusion either way. There is a rather larger body of literature describing Eysenck's view on the relation between race and intelligence, and the ways in which it can be seen to be a kind of scientific racism. I'm sure you can find it if you want to. I haven't reviewed the sources presented by User:Widescreen, so I don't know if they support the claim that he had far right ties or sympathies. His writings have certainly been frequently used by the American far right in support of claims about IQ being innate and unequally distributed between putative biological races. I am taking the article off my watchlist do with it what you want.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 13:21, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
All this is stale news, and has been hashed out countless times before — including in this Talk page. That there are differences between races is not in dispute. If this is racism, then so is the statement that Swedes on average are taller than pygmies. Nor is it in dispute that Prof. Eysenck thought that there might be a genetic component to performance differences (see his own statement above). Neither is he responsible for the antics of the American far right. All the rest is POV or just name-calling, and as such has no place in an encyclopædia. Paul Magnussen (talk) 16:08, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

One more thing: Apparently User:Widescreen based his claims largely on this[2] analysis of racist discourse in Gergmany which notes that Eysenck contributed to two German far right publications. The source says: "Eher in Form einer knappen Skizze möchte ich auf die Affinitäten der Texte von Singer, Jensen und Eysenck zum Rechtsextremismus verweisen. Singers Text operiert mit zentralen Argumenten von Arthur Jensen und Hans-Jürgen Eysenck. Diese aber fungieren als die Kronzeugen der “rassistischen Internationale”, wie Michael Billig eindrucksvoll nachweist. Sie widersprechen den rassistischen Argumenten der rechtsextremen Presse nicht etwa, sondern lassen sich z.B. in “Nation Europa”, einem in der Bundesrepublik erscheinenden rechtsextremen Zentralorgan, seit Jahren regelmäßig zitieren, um nicht zu sagen: feiern. Darüberhinaus geben sie solchen Organen Interviews, schreiben darin etc. Eysenck stellt sich zudem rückhaltlos hinter rechtsextreme Theorie-Zirkel wie z.B. das Kasseler Thule-Seminar. Zu dem von dessen Leiter herausgegebenen Buch mit dem Titel “Das unvergängliche Erbe” verfaßte er das Vorwort, in dem er gegen die Gleichheit der Menschen wettert, indem er sie als “unhaltbare ideologische Doktrin” abtut. (in Krebs 1981, S. 12) Im gleichen Buch findet sich ein offen rassistischer Artikel von einem Jörg Rieck “Zur Debatte der Vererblichkeit der Intelligenz”, der sich in vielen Zitaten und in mehr als 50 Anmerkungen auf Arbeiten von Jensen und Eysenck stützt. Rieck plädiert hier u.a. mehr oder minder verdeckt für die genetische Verbesserung des Volkes durch Auslese. Der Name Jörg Rieck steht wahrscheinlich als Pseudonym für den Neo-Faschisten Jürgen Rieger, dessen Kernthese lautet: “Die Geschichte ist eine Geschichte von Rassenkämpfen.” (Billig 1981, S. 118) Neuestes Beispiel für die immer noch anhaltenden rechtsextremen Aktivitäten von Eysenck: In der April-Ausgabe der rechtsextremen Nationalzeitung von 1990 schreibt Eysenck einen Artikel, in dem er Sigmund Freud der Verschlagenheit und mangelnder Aufrichtigkeit zeiht, wobei zugleich auf Freuds jüdische Herkunft verwiesen wird. Stolz verkündet die in letzter Zeit immer offener antisemitisch auftretende Deutsche Nationalzeitung, die von dem bekannten Alt-Rechten und Führer der Deutschen Volksunion Dr. Gerhard Frey herausgegeben wird, daß Hans-Jürgen Eysenck “seit längerer Zeit zum Mitarbeiterstab der Deutschen Nationalzeitung und des Deutschen Anzeigers gehört.”"·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:00, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Just more of the same: no verbatim quotes from Prof. Eysenck in any of this. My German is rusty, but I'll translate this later if no one else does. Right now I don't have the time. Paul Magnussen (talk) 16:08, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
I just did translate it, and it is the same old attack on Professor Arthur Jenson and Hans Eysenck, calling them racist and fully behind right-wing extremist theory. The Wikipedia article already contains: “Some of Eysenck's later work was funded from the Pioneer Fund, an organization often criticized for allegedly promoting scientific racism.” There is no objection to adding a line citing these other attacks, which did occur; however there is no factual evidence that Eysenck was a so-called right-wing extremist. Sirswindon (talk) 17:18, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Later work: paranormal abilities

In the paragraph "Eysenck's later work" the sentences

"Despite this strongly scientific interest, Eysenck did not shy, in later work, from giving attention to parapsychology and astrology. Indeed, he believed that empirical evidence supported the existence of paranormal abilities."

have the reference [25] which leads to: "Eysenck, H.J. (1957), Sense and Nonsense in Psychology. London: Pelican Books. p. 131."

In my opinion, the corresponding part needs a new source or is to be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.193.156.81 (talk) 12:12, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

So the only source for beliefs he supposedly expressed in his "later work" is one of his first books, published in 1957.

I have added a reference to Explaining the Unexplained. (1993). The preface says in so many words: "We consider that there is a wealth of evidence suggesting that 'paranormal' human abilities are real". Paul Magnussen (talk) 21:19, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Eugenics Society

The British Eugenics Society awarded me with a grant for research I did on the Inheritance of Neuroticism. Neither Eysenck nor I were "racist" individuals. We were both in search of "truth". By the way, Hans Eysenck was by far the brightest individual I have ever know during the 84 years of my lifetime. Sirswindon (talk) 20:34, 26 October 2008 (UTC)SirSwindon

Sometimes individuals who are not racists promote views that are.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 12:08, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

It's a question of this chapter, being deleted by other users, arguing there are no sources for this supplements.

There are a lot and high-qualitive Sources which show the link between Eysenck and the extreme right. I found much more, but I selected the follwoing, because it's able to use them online.

  • de:Pierre Krebs (Hrsg.): Das unvergängliche Erbe. Alternativen zum Prinzip der Gleichheit. Tübingen 1981, Eysenck wrote a preface for this book of an famous french Member of the Thule Society a representative of intellectual extreme right.
  • Eysenck wrote also an hole chapter for krebs book "Mut zur identität". This informations can't be denied. Also the article in the neo-nazi-press is easy to check.

Further some indipendent scientiffic autors also found this connection to the extreme right. All these sources got an high quality and were found in Google Scholar wrote by experts on extrem right politics.

  • Michael Billig, Andrew S. Winston (Hrsg.): Psychology, Racism & Fascism. scholar. online
  • H. J. Eysenck: Die Ungleichheit der Menschen. Orion-Heimreiter-Verlag, Kiel 1984, S. 245.
  • Schwindel mit Zwillingen. In: Der Spiegel. Oktober 1978 online.
  • Jens Mecklenburg: Was tun gegen rechts. Espresso-Verlag, Berlin 2002, S. 456 f. scholar
  • Hans-Jürgen Eysenck: Freud – Retter oder Scharlatan? In: National-Zeitung Nr. 18 vom 27. April 1990, S. 7.
  • de:Siegfried Jäger: Der Singer-Diskurs sowie einige Bemerkungen zu seiner Funktion für die Stärkung rassistischer und rechtsextremer Diskurse in der Bundesrepublik Deutschland. In: Siegfried Jäger, Jobst Paul (Hrsg.): Von Menschen und Schweinen. Der Singer-Diskurs und seine Funktion für den Neo-Rassismus. Diss-Texte Nr. 13, Duisburg 1991, S. 7-30 [3] scholar.
  • Leonie Knebel, Pit Marquardt: Der Versuch die Ungleichwertigkeit von Menschen zu beweisen. In: de:Michael Haller, Martin Niggeschmidt (Hrsg.): Der Mythos vom Niedergang der Intelligenz: Von Galton zu Sarrazin: Die Denkmuster und Denkfehler der Eugenik. Springer, Wiesbaden 2012. scholar online
  • Roger Griffin: The Nature of Fascism. St. Martins Press, New York 1991, online scholar
  • Peter Kratz: Die Götter des New Age: Im Schnittpunkt von „Neuem Denken“, Faschismus und Romantik. Elefanten Press Verlag, Berlin 1994, online
  • Tomislav Sunic: Against Democracy and Equality - The European New Right. 3. Auflage. Arktos Media, 2011, S. 141 ff. online [4]

So the Sources are absolutley high-qualive works of scientiffic researches. There's no reason to deny Eysencks commitment on extreme right politics. --WSC ® 12:58, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

So far I haven't seen anything but name-calling. Prof. Eysenck was a famous scientist, and that is his claim to an encylopædia entry. If you have evidence that he fudged scientific experiments or data because of his (alleged) political beliefs, then please present it; otherwise his politics are as irrelevant as what he had for breakfast. Paul Magnussen (talk) 22:39, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Hi Paul Magnussen, you didn't unterstand the information correctly. The autors of the sources abouve, confirm that Eysenck was connected to the (continental) european extreme right. Some call it the "new right" or the "extreme right intelligence". Especially to the Thule society but also to far right newspaper. He supported these groups and wrote some artikles and book-chapters for their racist publications. You can find the confirmation for that also in the German National Library record of Krebs book Eysenck wrote a preface, for example. So nobody can't deny these facts. But these faces aren't part of our article. So its necessary to add it. So I wrote a chapter, which was delated because of the lack of sources. That was not correct. So I demonstrate the sources again. Some of them in english some in german.
It's neccessary to add the chapter about the far right activitys of Eysenck or the article is not balanced. --WSC ® 07:08, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
And you don't seem to understand the rules of Wikipedia; in particular, those relating to POV and relevance.
'Right' (in this sense) is a POV term, now reduced to little more than a term of abuse: in various usages, it may mean:
1) Favouring the interests of the capitalist class over those of the working class.
2) Favouring the interests of one's own race over those of other races.
3) Favouring the status quo over radical change.
But these various attitudes need not cluster together, and often do not. Were the dockers who marched in support of Enoch Powell right-wing (2) or left-wing (1)? Was the 1989 convulsion in the communist countries right-wing (1) or left-wing (3)?
Note also that 2) is logically independent of the objective demonstration that various races have on average, or have not, particular characteristics.
Add to this what I said above and now repeat: that Prof. Eysenck was a scientist, not a politician, and his politics are therefore irrelevant, unless you can show that they interfered with his science.
I haven't noticed you leaping up and down about Leon Kamin or Stephen Jay Gould, whose politics apparently did dictate their science… Paul Magnussen (talk) 16:04, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Hi Paul Magnussen, I'm lucky to have your opinion on the chapter. But it seem so, there are some missunderstandings.
  1. It wasn't anyones fiction to talk about the term "right" it was taken from the reliabel sources. That means, the authors of the sources talk about the "extreme right". We can't change this term. The authors also talk about "scientiffic racism". If you rather want this term as heading, we can talk about that. The wp article Extreme_right seems to be clear. But it's possible to take a term was not translated from german to english. I found some really good sources in english. Roger Griffin, for example, wrote in his book, "The Nature of Fascism" in the chapter "Non-European and Post-War Facism" about eysencks link to Krebs. If you prefer the term Post-War Facism, we can also talk about that. But we have to take a term was found in the source. We can't invent a term for the heading.
  2. You claimed, that the politic activitys of the scientist Eysenck are irrelevant. Sorry, but I never heard such a assertion. Especially because Eysenck wrote about his scientiffic findings in nazi-newspapers like Nation Europa or National-Zeitung. Or gives a hole chapter to neo-nazi Pierre Krebs book "Mut zur Identität" about the difference of intelligence between races. So you can see, the far right activitys of Eysenck are closely linked to his scientiffic researches. Thats why you can't conceal this interesting points.
Futher, I'm not interested in Leon Kamin or Stephen Jay Gould. This is the talk page of Eysenck. --WSC ® 16:44, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Supposing that your characterisation of these publications is correct and that Prof. Eysenck did actually write for them (as opposed to allowing publication of previously-written material), have you considered the possibility that he would write for anyone who paid his fee? Apparently not.
I see no factual evidence in any of the above about what his politics actually were; just guilt by association. Neither do I see any 'links' to his scientific researches, causal or otherwise.
We're obviously talking past each other. If you persist with this, I shall ask for it to independently adjudicated. OK? Paul Magnussen (talk) 17:15, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
That doesn't matter! He wrote long prose in these nazi-publications about "negros" and the "jew" Sigmund Freud. If he was corrupt and did it for the money is another point. But that was not apparent form the sources.
Futher you don't have to see any "links" (excuse my bad english) to his scentiffic work. The authors of the sources have to do this. And they have. So this objection is conjecture. --WSC ® 17:37, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Good! Exactly what did he write about "negros" and the "jew" Sigmund Freud? In German is fine, but give the source, please. However, you might note in passing that Eysenck a) was part Jewish himself and b) was happily married to a Jewess. Rather a strange anti-Semite, one might think. Paul Magnussen (talk) 17:59, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
If I read the sources correctly his first wife was jewish. You can find the sources at the german WP-article. In german you can find a really detailed description of his far-right activities in one publication of the de:Duisburger Institut für Sprach- und Sozialforschung: here another good description can be found at Leonie Knebel, Pit Marquardt: Der Versuch die Ungleichwertigkeit von Menschen zu beweisen. In: Michael Haller, Martin Niggeschmidt (Hrsg.): Der Mythos vom Niedergang der Intelligenz: Von Galton zu Sarrazin: Die Denkmuster und Denkfehler der Eugenik. Springer, Wiesbaden 2012. online at google-books. He wrote about "negros" ("neger") in his book: Die Ungleichheit der Menschen. (The unequality of Mankind) Ullstein, Berlin 1989. I don't know if it's published in english? In the nazi-newspaper "National-Zeitung" he wrote an article about Sigmund Freud. But these facts are all verifiable at the scientiffic sources I gave. wp:or is not allowed. --WSC ® 18:23, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
His second wife/widow, Sybil, is Jewish; I have no information as to his first wife, Margaret.
I gather you want the equivalent of the relevant German Wikipedia section, in English. I find that no more substantial than your previous posts; it's all innuendo and guilt by association. The only allegation of fact is that he referred to negros as "unbegabter", which translates in to English as "ungifted" or "untalented". The source is allegedly the German translation of The Inequality of Man (yes, it is published in English). I can find no such statement; it is so evidently false that it would amaze me if I could.
I have asked for a third-party opinion Paul Magnussen (talk) 19:00, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Ok, Paul Magnussen, now I habe to tell you, that Wikipedia is based on sources. I have given these sources. So there is no reason to doubt that. All informations can be found in this excellent sources I gave. --WSC ® 19:10, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
If you have access to the sources, why don't you give the page numbers and verbatim quotations? At the moment it's just what someone else said he said.
I have to say that it seems to me not beyond the bounds of possibility that this is an attempt to discredit his scientific work by ascribing to him political views that he did not, in fact, possess.
Incidentally the Index of The Inequality of Man has no entry for Negro(s), Black(s), African American(s) or Race. Paul Magnussen (talk) 19:30, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
The most sources are online. Why don't you take a look by yourself if you don't trust my words? But I have to correct myself: Eysenck just write the preface of Krebs book " Das unvergängliche Erbe." Not this chapter. That was a mistake. At google-books there is a tool to search the book. So type in "Eysenck" and you will find the textpassage. But you are right! I add the pagenubers.
The Textpassage was found in the book Leonie Knebel, Pit Marquardt: Der Versuch die Ungleichwertigkeit von Menschen zu beweisen. In: de:Michael Haller, Martin Niggeschmidt (Hrsg.): Der Mythos vom Niedergang der Intelligenz: Von Galton zu Sarrazin: Die Denkmuster und Denkfehler der Eugenik. Springer, Wiesbaden 2012. scholar online. I try to translate it for you: Eysenck wrote about his fiend Jensen: "He also saw no way for the reasoning only invironmantal impact is the reason for the underpreforming of Negros in Intelligence-tests. It was sourced with the number 72 Vererbung, Intelligenz und Erziehung by Hans J. Eysenck. I'm sorry about that it wasn't the unequality of man it was "Vererbung, Intelligenz und Erziehung" I correct that soon. --WSC ® 20:01, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
I hope you're going to correct it in the German version of Wikipedia too.
Vererbung, Intelligenz und Erziehung is the German translation of Race, Intelligence and Education (The IQ Argument in the US). I can't immediately find that quotation in the original English, but you are substantially correct: Jensen and Eysenck were friends; and neither thought that the observed IQ differential was adequately explained by the environmental hypotheses so far advanced. This is stale news. And it's not a political view, it's a scientific one.
What would you say are the characteristics of the Extreme Right? Beating up the opposition, refusing to allow them to speak, threatening their children?
These were the tactics of Prof. Eysenck's opponents, not of Eysenck. Paul Magnussen (talk) 23:28, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Well it's just the translation of the german term, the authors of the source used. I found the word "negro" Wihtout any problems repeatedly [5] --WSC ® 00:04, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request:
Hi. I am here to offer a third opinion. First off, the Thule Society dissolved between 1920 and 1925, so it's absurd to assert that a 8 year old Eysenck somehow supported it. Perhaps "Thule-Seminar" was intended? The other verifiable facts, the authorship of the preface of the Thule Seminar book and his views on american black intelligence heritablity cannot be combined to draw the conclusion that he shared a far-right ideology. This is improper synthesis. Hope this helps. Gigs (talk) 17:43, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
Exactly. His scientific views are not in dispute. All that's been produced on his political views is name-calling and unsupported inference. Paul Magnussen (talk) 18:29, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
It is referring to the Thule Seminar. As far as the far right, there's no synthesis being performed. The fact he wrote a preface for TS and his views on African American intelligence only SUPPORT and ILLUSTRATE an otherwise established (by sources) fact that Eysenck had far right views [6] [7].
Never trust a wikipedia-article. The Thule Society means the same as Thule-Seminar. --WSC ® 17:57, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
It's improper to combine multiple sources to "support and illustrate" an assertion (especially a controversial one) that none of the sources themselves made. This is the very definition of improper synthesis. Gigs (talk) 18:03, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
But the sources do! So I don't understand the point? --WSC ® 18:09, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
As WSC says, it's simply NOT the case that "none of the sources" make the assertion that Eysenck was associated with the far right. He was. Sources say so. There is a link to one right above your last comment. Click it please. "Support and illustrate" very obviously refers to ADDITIONAL evidence for an assertion.VolunteerMarek 03:14, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
Btw, a third opinion is inappropriate in this instance (never mind that it's not binding). 3O is applicable in a dispute between two people, not several editors.VolunteerMarek 17:50, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
We don't enforce that requirement strictly, and this dispute, at least the recent section above, appeared to be primarily between two editors. Gigs (talk) 18:03, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
True enough. Neither do we consider third opinions binding, particularly if the provider has not paid attention to the discussion and links provided so far.VolunteerMarek 03:14, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
You are right that my opinion is non-binding. But I resent the implication that I did not study the situation fully. I have looked at all the links and I believe that assembling them together to form a conclusion about the political affiliation of Eysenck would be improper synthesis. Controversial claims require the strongest sources. Cobbling together a bunch of "evidence" for a conclusion is exactly what our synthesis and original research policies are designed to prevent. The strongest source is Liang, and that's merely an offhand epithet, not a critical discussion of the political views of Eysenck. While my opinion may be non-binding, our policies on synthesis are non-negotiable, and I strongly feel that what is being attempted here is improper synthesis. I like where Itsmejudith is going with this below. Source the facts that you can source, and leave it at that. Gigs (talk) 14:46, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

THIS DISCUSSION NEEDS TO BE BROUGHT TO A CONCLUSION. Widescreen and others: I have no problem with Eysenck being “accused” of supporting the extreme right. But to attempt to offer what has been put forth here as “proof” is ludicrous. I personally knew the man for almost 50 years; yes he was very controversial, but he was never racist or part of the extreme far right. He fled Germany to escape from the far right. His had a Jewish wife --- need more be said? As to the use of the words “American Negros” --- the use of Negro by a European writer was not considered racist. If you read his work, he wrote about what was at that time a very, very small (but statistically significant) difference in IQ’s between the means of two populations. Would someone please present some real evidence of Eysenck being racist. Last, this is not opinion from several editors. This is about facts and the use of loaded words and innuendos to denigrate a remarkable individual.Sirswindon (talk) 04:14, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

We don't need a conclusion, we need to go back to reliable sources as I listed above. --WSC ® 04:47, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
OK, we can source the fact that he wrote the preface to Pierre Krebs' Das Unverganglich Erbe. That should be in his list of works, which should be divided into authored books, edited books, journal articles and other. The preface is mentioned in a few academic texts on the far right, but mainly in passing. I'm not sure if there'll be enough to write up any comments about the linkage with Krebs. @Widescreen, there's such a thing as RS but there's also such a thing as synthesis, let's work together in a way that respects all the WP pillars. Itsmejudith (talk) 06:28, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
No, we can source much more. He also wrote in extreme right newspapers like National-Zeitung an Nation und Europa. The National-Zeitung calls him part of the staff. And there are some more points to depicted. Some sources call Eysencks point of view racialistic. Futher he was part of the science council of the cultural magazin Mankind Quarterly, which support racial segregation. He also published a Interview in a british extreme right newspaper. The synthesis have to contain all of these facts if you want to have an balanced article. --WSC ® 00:36, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Good grief, it never even occurred to me that anything was being inferred from the fact that Eysenck used the word "Negros". This was the standard term in the UK, until the euphemism treadmill caught up with it. Paul Magnussen (talk) 16:50, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
"Negro" is itself a euphemism for "Black". I agree, though, that its use is not worth remarking on, and when we're dealing with a translation into German, there is even less that can be inferred about terms used. I thought the point was that Eysenck had stated that black people were less intelligent, which was and is controversial, to say the least. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:03, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
Black people have historically, on average, scored lower than other groups on IQ tests, that much is undisputed fact. Nor is it disputed that blacks have historically, on average, been disadvantaged, environmentally and otherwise. What is disputed is whether these disadvantages account for the observed disparity in IQ scores.
Jensen and Eysenck both considered that the environmental explanations so far advanced did not adequately account for the data, stating their reasons in their books. This resulted in the furore that you're aware of. Neither ruled out possible future environmental explanations, nor considered that the genetic explanation was proven.
(One of Eysenck's favourite examples was that of George Washington Carver, who was refused an education because of his colour and had pretty much every environmental disadvantage the sociologists cite, but who nevertheless turned out to be one of the greatest geniuses the USA has known.)
See Prof. Eysenck's own statement, quoted above on this page on 26 January 2006. Paul Magnussen (talk) 17:50, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
I don't want to talk about your imagination of Eysencks nobleness. --WSC ® 01:02, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
That statement you just made, speaks volumes as to your agenda. No, Hans was never "noble; he had faults, but he was never a right-wing extremest, or a racist. As for me --- I knew Hans Eysenck --- now I would like to know more about you and your agenda. Note, I have put the IQ debate stuff where it belonged. Sirswindon (talk) 03:33, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
@WSC: Nothing to do with my imagination. All documented; that's the point. Paul Magnussen (talk) 05:22, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

To refocus. WSC, I am trying to look through your sources but finding them hard to access. Could you please pull out three you think we should consider, with full bibliographical details? Thanks. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:46, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I've listed the online accessible above. These are most scientiffic overviews about far right movement and their thinking. --WSC ® 08:52, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
All the sources so far adduced show is innuendo. For instance, WSC apparently deduces, from the fact Eysenck contributed to Mankind Quarterly, that he supported segregation (see above).
To show exactly how valuable this kind of inference is, I quote verbatim from the introduction to Eysenck's The IQ Argument (the American edition of Race, Intelligence and Education , page ii). Italics in the original:
"There are two points I wish to make here, although I have made them again in more detail in the body of the book. They are so important that repetition may serve to underline their relevance to the discussion. The first point is that whatever conclusion we come to with respect to the Negro's low IQ, as compared with the white American's, this conclusion does not, and cannot, justify any argument in favor of segregation. Segregation on racial grounds is morally wrong and ethically unacceptable. "
Paul Magnussen (talk) 16:55, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Please don't confund my opinion and the source! That would be a beginning of a real discussion. --WSC ® 18:09, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
You were the one that dragged in Mankind Quarterly, presumably in the belief that it proved something. You have yet to produce any statement of Prof. Eysenck's that shows his views were what you suggest. I have just produced one that shows they were not. Paul Magnussen (talk) 19:48, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
The same flaw all the time! It't wasn't me that draged in Mankind Quarterly. I found it in a source. Please stopp address reproches to me. --WSC ® 10:33, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
An on-line search shows that Vererbung, Intelligenz und Erziehung bears the inscription "Aus dem Englischen von O. Fetkenheuer und Uwe Rheingans". I have therefore deleted the sentence about this, since the English contains no such statement as that asserted. If someone can present a verbatim quotation from the German, then fine; although all it would show would be that Herren Fetkenheuer and Rheingans didn't do their job properly. Paul Magnussen (talk) 22:10, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
I also found this coherence in a source. So it's not on you to criticise the sources. Therefor I put the sentence back into. Remember it was not found in Eysencks book. This context was found in a source writes about Eysencks book. So you can't establish WP:OR. --WSC ® 10:38, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Magnussen, I do appreciate the time you are taking to debunk this attempt to link Eysenck to the so-called extreme right. It is unfortunate that so few individuals are able to understand the very small (yet significant) difference between the two groups in Eysenck's IQ study. What is Widescreen's agenda (motive) with regard to Eysenck? Those of us that had a close relationship with Hans knew he was never a racist nor a follower of the far right. After reading some of the references given by Widescreen, they turn out to be the same-old rehashing of non-scientific junk. If Widescreen persists in continuing to re-post this stuff, we may need to find a senior Wikipedia editor to make a decision as to what is to be included in this article. Sirswindon (talk) 23:22, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

[8] --WSC ® 10:43, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Thank you Widescreen, “Weasel words” are exactly what is written in your references. If they had offered factual evidence that Eysenck had used faulty methods or statistics, etc., you might include that in the article. But no, all they did was repeat the same old accusations without citing any evidence to back up their statements. I agree with your recent addition to this Talk section; that is why your edits do not belong in the article. Sirswindon (talk) 16:55, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
I glad to see you've shot your bolt. Now you beginn to criticise reliable sources. This is called POV here. That means the violation of the five pillars of wikipedia. If you continue your behavior, you will be blocked. It's not on you to ciriticese reliable sources like that. --WSC ® 17:11, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
The only reliable information in your sources is as to what names Eysenck was called. Second-hand assertions as to what he said are of no relevance when the first-hand sources — his books and articles — are available. I have quoted two of them in refutation. Despite repeated requests you have failed to produce any actual quotations from Prof. Eysenck in support in your thesis. I suggest that this is because you cannot, as he never wrote any such things. Prove me wrong. Paul Magnussen (talk) 19:50, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Mr. Magnussen. Please request a Third Party Opinion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:3O --- Widescreen may not understand that when someone writes something in a journal or other publication, it does not become a valid fact. I am age 88, and have spent my life defending truth and fighting "hearsay" opinions: "Scholarship demands thorough research; examining many conflicting sources then weighing the evidence and explaining how and why it was weighed as it was; also objectivity in assessing the validity of the material and attempting to present an unbiased credible summary with detailed citations." What Widescreen has posted does not meet the standard of scholarship. Sirswindon (talk) 01:03, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
@Paul Magnussen: Are you kidding? These publications are high quality works in politic science and one in psychology. The works are all being cited by other scientiffic authors. And all authors write the same: Eysenck was well connected to far right politic circles. Both, british and american authors and also the german authors write aboute the tys between Eysencks theories and the far right ideology. And also Eysencks commitment and support of these far right groups. Your rabulistic argumentation is not suitable to deny these facts. Your quibble Critics borders on the ridiculous. It seems to me, you won't accept the far right activities of eysenck. A scientist who believes till his death in the late 1990ies that there are different races in mankind. A fact was beeing obsolet since the early 1980ies.
I've listed 10 excellent sources who all wrote the same with different focusses. But if you were interested in this case, you would find much more. I selected, especially for you, online available sources, so you have the chance to check them by yourself. Some are germanlanguaged what you don't understand. But also the english sources are not seems to be persuasive to you.
I think thats a deliberately violation of WP:NPOV. --WSC ® 14:09, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Some of the sources you have found probably are reliable. I would like to check them all out, but you really do have to give full bibliographic details. That Eysenck wrote a preface to Krebs' book is well sourced (German national library catalogue page [9]). But this catalogue entry says that the book was translated from French. We should find out whether there was an original French publication, and whether it carried the preface by Eysenck. Then we have to work through all the other references with due care. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:45, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
The Billig text is here. It is described as "a pamphlet"; since it is by a psychologist and has been placed on line by a professor, we need to discuss whether it is a reliable source or not. Many of the claims it makes about Eysenck can be checked out, e.g. did he publish in Mankind Quarterly, how frequently. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:07, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Another fault. The book of billig is published printed: [10] and well cited by other scientiffic authors. What you found is a chapter, available online. --WSC ® 17:34, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Not available online, which is not a problem in itself, but do you have access to a copy? Do you have page numbers? Itsmejudith (talk) 17:41, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
I have found it in academic library catalogues in the UK, and it is actually a pamphlet, 40 pages. Michael Billig went on to publish a number of social psychology books and seems to be a mainstream academic. This text, although a pamphlet, is cited by scholars, and I would see it as a reliable source, although further opinions can be sought at the reliable sources noticeboard. We would need to have page numbers if it is to be used. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:27, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Well, he did publish in it, and I see that one of the co-founders was Otmar Freiherr von Verschuer. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:16, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Years ago the journal of the Eugenics Society was highly regarded, however many of its articles did not meet the test of Scholarship. As this Talk continues, WSC, please let us have your frame of reference. My frame of reference (my background) has been in Science, in particulars Statistics and Experimental Design. Please let us know about yourself, as that may assist in understanding your support for the material in your edits. The items you have referenced may have appeared in a number of respected journals and other publications but they do not appear to meet the test of Scholarship --- "Scholarship demands thorough research; examining many conflicting sources then weighing the evidence and explaining how and why it was weighed as it was; also objectivity in assessing the validity of the material and attempting to present an unbiased credible summary with detailed citations."

May I suggest that all parties to this discussion read the Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Jensen It is well known that Eysenck's work followed that of Jenson. The Jenson article is an objective, well written presentation of Jenon’s work. If only WSC could find a way of presenting Eysenck’s work, instead of just placing labels such as “Racist” and "Extreme Far Right." Everyone, please follow what Itsmejudith has suggested, and then find a way of presenting the material objectively as in the Jenson article. Until then, nothing should be included in the actual Eysenck Article. Sirswindon (talk) 17:54, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

User:sirswindon, is still willing to deny reliable sources. This behaviour is called POV-pushing here. POV-pushing is not allowed. POV-pushers will be blocked. --WSC ® 18:03, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Hey ho, here we go again.
a) No one disputes that Prof. Eysenck was accused of being right-wing; his critics were obliging enough to scrawl "FASCIST EYSENCK HAS NO RIGHT TO SPEAK!" on the wall of Birmingham University, in case anyone should miss the point. That much is certainly fact; and the fact belongs, if anywhere, in the Criticism section, where it already resides.
b) @WSC, you have still produced no facts, except the fact of the accusations — which I don't doubt is well documented.
c) You observe that Prof. Eysenck believed "that there are different races in mankind". In this you are correct: there is an entire chapter in Race, Intelligence and Education entitled What is race?, in which he adduces the findings of serological genetics, and quotes I.I. Gottesman's definition from Social Class, Race and Psychological Development. You are certainly entitled to believe that this makes him right-wing, just as you are entitled to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of your garden. But this belief has no place in an encyclopædia.
d) My German is indeed rusty. But I did four years of it at school, and lived in Germany in 1973. So it's still quite adequate to see that the "sources" you adduce are just more name-calling and unjustified extrapolation.
e) "POV-pushers will be blocked". You relieve me: calling anyone "right-wing" is POV ipso facto.
I certainly have no objection to any factual statement being included, including that of what criticisms were made, if these are considered more than the usual unbalanced rantings; and provided they're confined to the Criticism section. Paul Magnussen (talk) 18:20, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
By the way, Criticism sections aren't the way to go with articles on controversial topics. It is much better to deal with both (all) sides of arguments under topic headings throughout. A chronological structure may be the most appropriate for a biography. The way the Jensen article had Criticism and then Responses to criticism gives Jensen the last word, which is not necessarily appropriate. Also note that Jensen is still alive, so our BLP rules apply - they don't with Eysenck, although the requirement to treat the subject neutrally is always there. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:31, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
@Itsmejudith: Fine. My only concern is that unsubstantiated accusation not be presented as fact. Paul Magnussen (talk) 18:44, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

You both were wrong. In fact you deny and delate information taken from reliable sources by using rablulistic and quibble allegations against the sources I've present. During I argued by using high-qualaty and scientiffic sources you both used only far-fetched allegations. And show the deliberately missunderstandig of the content or the quality of the sources. Thats not persuasive. 22:58, 23 September 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Widescreen (talk • contribs)

I have decided to enter this talk page discussion. Many highly regarded journals contain articles that do not meet the test of scholarship. It appears that even if Eysenck’s work on the difference between two races were seriously flawed, that fact would have nothing to do with his political views or whether or not he was a racist. Shouldn’t it be required for one of you to present evidence from one of Eysenck’s own writings to establish he was a racist or that he was from the extreme Far-right. That a writer in a respected journal calls someone a racist, is not evidence of racism. The Eysenck article states: “After his Publications about Psychoanalysis and Intelligence, Eysenck became a supporter of the extreme right. Eysenck supported the Far-right Thule Society and published articles in the german newspaper National Zeitung, which called him contributor, and Nation und Europa." The key word here is “supported” therefore where in any of the references is evidence that Eysenck supported the extreme right or Far-right. Eysenck did not publish articles, the newspaper published them. Contributing an article is not evidence of support for something. Reproaching Freud and referencing his Jewish background may have been in poor taste but it is not evidence of Eysenck being connected to the Far-right. Writing the preface to a book by an author accused of being in the Far-right is not evidence that the preface writer should also be accused of being of the Far-right. What I find especially reprehensible, is all this name-calling in this section of the Article. So far, no one has presented an objective/measurable definition of the so-called “Far-right” followed by evidence that Eysenck was a member of such group. Until that is accomplished there is no logical reason for including this subject in the Eysenck Article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by InigmaMan (talk • contribs) 00:11, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Hey, one contribution user! What makes you believe I dosn't found the word "supported" in the sources? To be exact in Jäger: Der Singer-Diskurs sowie einige Bemerkungen zu seiner Funktion für die Stärkung rassistischer und rechtsextremer Diskurse in der Bundesrepublik Deutschland. In: Siegfried Jäger, Jobst Paul (Hrsg.): Von Menschen und Schweinen. Der Singer-Diskurs und seine Funktion für den Neo-Rassismus. Diss-Texte Nr. 13, Duisburg 1991, S. 7-30.
I don't know. --WSC ® 07:34, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Once again I have removed the unsupported statement about the German translation of Race, Intelligence and Education. That book purports to be a translation of the English version; and if it indeed contains the alleged statement, then it is not. An "it says that" assertion by Prof. Eysenck's detractors won't do. WSC, produce an in-context, verbatim quotation from it, with a page number, or go away. Paul Magnussen (talk) 16:01, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Sorry Paul Magnussen, but it's not on you to ciriticize any valid, scientiffic source, just because you have an other opinon. We cannot deny sources why you are doubt it. This is rather the real meaning of Point of View and the reason we have to use sources. Ok, you try to deny Esencks connections to far right. Write an article in an peer-reviewed magazin. Than you have the right to deny something.
If your sources say that a book contains something that it does not, in fact, contain, then clearly they're not "valid and scientiffic".
If you have access to the book, then why can't you produce an in-context quotation and page number?
If you don't have access to the book, then you have no business contradicting other people about what it says. Paul Magnussen (talk) 16:21, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
WSC. I cannot find anything in what you just posted above as evidence that Eysenck actually was a racist or a supporter of the Far-right. Question: Have you read his Autobiography “Rebel with a Cause” (published in 1990)? Pages 215-228 explain his motivation in writing about race, IQ and equality in his books as well as articles in many publications. On page 228, he ends his chapter with: “It is odd, and indeed paradoxical, that my most determined opponents should have been people with whose aims I completely agreed.” Eysenck’s autobiography is the best evidence of his not being either a racist or a supporter of the Far-right. If you have not read his Autobiography, I can understand why you might wish to accept what you suggest are reliable references. But in this discussion, the most factual evidence is from Eysenck himself. For certain he was accused of all sorts of things, but he never became a supporter of the extreme right. Therefore what you have inserted into the Criticism section of the Article needs to be re-written. Where it is written: “Eysenck became a supporter” it should be written: “Eysenck was accused of becoming a supporter.” Where it is written: Eysenck supported the far-right Thule Seminar” it should be written: Eysenck was accused of supporting the …..” As to the reference to Freud’s background, it may have been in poor taste, but it is not evidence of Eysenck being a racist of part of the extreme right. This entry should be eliminated. Writing a preface to a book by someone accused of being of the Far-right is not evidence that preface-writer also should be accused of being of the Far-right. This entry also has no place in the biography of Eysenck. As to Eysenck calling the equality of humans an ‘untenable ideological doctrine’ --- in his Autobiography Eysenck writes quite clearly that lack of equality has to do with biological differences, and not equality before the law, etc. Eysenck’s thesis is that none of us are biologically equal. The references provided are a repeat of the Jenson issue, and do not deal with Eysenck’s thesis. I do apologize for being so long winded, but since Eysenck is no longer with us, his Autobiography must be used in his defense. InigmaMan (talk) 20:26, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Hey two contribution user! Eysencks autobiography is not a scientiffic source it's literature. Of course it's possible to add what Eysenck thinks about his own activitys. But it's not the relevant part of the chapter. You forget that all the authors of the sources you criticized are more differentiated than Eysenck was.
But it's good to see, nobody deny the main facts of the text anymore, like at the beginning of this debatte. Of course it's possible to ballance the text out. I think I would be helpfull to mach the statment to his authors. But fist, it's necessary to add the part of the text about Eysencks statments about "negros". Because it's taken by an reliable source. --WSC ® 18:19, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
At this point you should get advice at WP:RSN. Ask for help from a German speaker, because I think we are having real trouble in communicating. You need to give full bibliographical details of the sources and say which statements you want them to support. I'm a regular contributor at RSN but will abstain from commenting on the request, because this needs wider attention. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:42, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for your help. Please can you give me a hyperlink or a example for the "full bibliographic details". I just cited the books with german academic standards. I've never noticed the english standard are different.
Do you think my english is as lousy as you suggested? :o) --WSC ® 20:19, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
A full reference for a book is the author, title and publisher, and very importantly, the page number. Edition if there is more than one. For an article, the author, article title, name of the journal, volume, issue, date. Your English is better than my German, but I don't edit de.wiki, and don't even edit fr.wiki although my French is nearly good enough. Editing an encyclopaedia does need good language skills, but proposing things on a talk page is easier. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:06, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

(Widescreen, Itsmejudth, and Magnussen --- as a point of interest, have you read Eysenck’s Autobiography?) I am planning to edit the Article and I would appreciate comments before I make the changes. 1) Where it is written: “Eysenck became a supporter” it will be changed to: “Eysenck was accused of becoming a supporter” The change is being made, as this is an accusation NOT a fact. 2) Where it is written: “Eysenck supported the far-right Thule Seminar” it will be changed to: Eysenck was accused of supporting the far-right Thule Seminar” The change is being made, as this is an accusation NOT a fact. 3) Reproaching Freud my have been in poor taste but it is not evidence of racism or being part of the Far-right. This sentence will be eliminated as it is not relevant. 4. The sentence regarding Eysenck having written the preface to a book written by someone accused of being a far-right writer is not evidence that Eysenck himself was of the Far-right. It will be eliminated as it is not relevant. 5) That Eysenck called the equality of humans an ‘untenable ideological doctrine’ is not evidence he was a racist. On pages 220-221 of his Autobiography, Eysenck makes it clear he is referring to physical and mental abilities. Therefore, unless references are able to prove that stating that all humans are not equal (biologically) is racist, that sentence will be eliminated. (Of course, if you want to write: Eysenck was accused of being racist because he wrote that the equality of humans is an ‘untenable ideological doctrine’, with a footnote that he was referring to biological equality --- so be it.) 6) Last, I plan to place a quote from Eysenck’s Autibiography at the conclusion of this Criticism section, as I believe it is relevant: In his Autobiography, Eysenck answered critics who called him a Racist or a Fascist with: “It is odd, and indeed paradoxical, that my most determined opponents should have been people with whose aims I completely agreed.” (The reference is: "Eysenck, Hans J. 1990, p. 228">Eysenck, Hans J., Rebel With A Cause (an Autobiography), London: W. H. Allen & Co., 1990, pp. 215-228 InigmaMan (talk) 22:04, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

See above.

Single purpose accounts: Single purpose accounts are expected to contribute neutrally instead of following their own agenda and, in particular, should take care to avoid creating the impression that their focus on one topic is non-neutral, which could strongly suggest that their editing is not compatible with the goals of this project.

Itsmejudith (talk) 22:12, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

I have indeed read Prof. Eysenck's autobiography, and also the biographies of Gibson and Buchanan, as well as a fair amount more generally on the present subject of contention. Paul Magnussen (talk) 01:35, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

I can't find any reference to Eysenck writing a chapter in Pierre Krebs' Mut zur identität. We would need a source for that. The book itself can be the source so long as we have a chapter listing, and I can't find one online anywhere. I searched in the German National Library, and the book definitely existed, but nothing about the chapters. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:55, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Itsmejudth, I agree that it is imperative that facts and not only accusations are presented. That is why I have suggested the above edits to the article. Before I make changes to Section 3.1 of the Article, please comment on what I have written above. If you feel I am not being objective, let me know. I am still having a problem with undefined terms such as Far-right and Racist in this Article, without having measurable definitions. I know I am repeating myself, but why is it proof Eysenck was a racist if what he did was show poor taste in how he reproached Freud? Maybe his critics could call him “anti-Freud” but what has race got to do with this? Can someone please explain? InigmaMan (talk) 17:29, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

If you are genuinely new to Wikipedia, welcome. Please closely read our policy on Neutral Point of View. We are neither here to expose people's views nor to cover them up. We should reflect the coverage in good sources. That is why I am trying to work out what sources are available, and what they say. We do not have to define terms ourselves. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:48, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
I have several of Prof. Eysenck's books, including Race, Intelligence and Education, The Inequality of Man, and his autobiography. Please let me know if you want anything looked up. Paul Magnussen (talk) 20:36, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
The article by Billig (currently reference nº 34 in the main article) is on line:
http://www.ferris.edu/HTMLS/othersrv/isar/archives2/billig/homepage.htm
Paul Magnussen (talk) 23:44, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
I do understand the policy of being neutral. In section 3.1 of the Article it is written: “After his publications about Psychoanalysis and Intelligence, Eysenck became a supporter of the extreme right.” The term “extreme right” is defined in the Far-right Article in Wikipedia. Using Wikipedia’s definition of the term, nowhere in any of the references is there evidence of Eysenck actually supporting the extreme right, or the Thule Society. Being neutral I have no objection to section 3.1 indicating Eysenck was accused of supporting the Far-right, etc. That is the neutral position. The non-neutral positions would be either eliminating the items entirely or leaving them as presently written. InigmaMan (talk) 22:48, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
He wrote a preface for Krrebs book, that is certain. It seems he also published in Mankind Quarterly and in two German right-wing papers, and took money from the Pioneer Fund. We have at least two academics writing about this: Billig and Griffin; they should be our principal sources alongside the biographies. Itsmejudith (talk) 06:56, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
That he took money from the Pioneer Fund is, I believe, not disputed. He said something about taking money wherever he could get it, since, since nobody else would fund the research. I will try to find the exact quote. Paul Magnussen (talk) 15:11, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
Just because you don't understand the german sources doesn't mean we cannot use them. I would be glad if you accept the academic standards. Futher, a autorbiographie ain't a scientiffic release. It's literature. It's really unpleasant to repeat the rules again and again. --WSC ® 07:20, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
Whom are you addressing? No-one is saying we can't use German sources. I agree that an autobiography is a primary source. In your list of supposedly good sources you included one of Eysenck's books, translated into German. That is a primary source. Would you like to address the question of the chapter in Mut zur Identitat? Itsmejudith (talk) 08:25, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
It don't matter whos ment. My arguments applies to all. You still haven't understand, that I just cited the book of Eysenck because it's good style to do that. The things Eysenck sayed in the book and the conclusion, wat that means, is taken from the secondary source! And these source cited the german translation of Eysencks little book. So of course you have to cite the german version, because the german version was cited in the secondary source. Please don't try to deny the findings of the sources any longer.
FYI: RSN-case. --WSC ® 08:44, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
But WSC, you haven't cited the book of Eysenck, despite repeated requests to do so: all you've cited are second-hand assertions about it.
The technique of saying that your opponent asserts something that he doesn't actually assert, and then attacking that assertion, is called a Straw Man argument; and I suggest that that's what we have here.
And if a secondary source says that a primary source asserts something that it does not, in fact, assert, then ipso facto it's not reliable. Paul Magnussen (talk) 17:57, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
And as for Eysenck's attitude to Jews, as supposedly evinced by remarks about Freud, I quote the following from his autobiography (2nd edition, p.35):
"Certainly at school and later on in life most of my friends were Jewish, as is my second wife. So were many of my colleagues at the Institute of Psychiatry. When it is remembered that only about one person in a hundred in England is Jewish, it is obvious that the Jews have an attractive quality for me, possibly related to their high intelligence, their wit, their culture and their love of education, which distinguishes them as a group. All this is quite independent of the horror of the Holocaust which should always be in the memory of anyone who feels like criticizing Jewish national aspirations. I am nether proud nor ashamed of being a German — after all, I had little to do with it — but I can never forget what my fellow-countrymen did to the Jews, and will always have a feeling that there is a huge debt that can never be repaid."
Note also that one of Eysenck's grandmothers was Jewish, and died in a concentration camp.
As to his politics, he says (p.85): "When I put all these ideas into The Psychology of Politics, and later on The Psychological Basis of Ideology, I encountered for the first time the hostility and hatred of the militant left. Hitherto I had always thought of myself as essentially socialist in outlook. Suddenly, and without any change in my views, I was cast in the role of a right-wing extremist, a fascist, and an enemy of the working class." Paul Magnussen (talk) 23:15, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Sry. But now your argumentation is getting absurd. It's a reliable secondary source you citicizing. Bring any source which denys the statement. You can't deny any reliable source by your own beliefs. --WSC ® 22:27, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I have had enough. WSC and Itsmejudith, I expect you feel the same way. I've requested medation. Paul Magnussen (talk) 23:09, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
Whatever you want. You will not succeed with your attempt to deny reliable sources. --WSC ® 23:42, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
The sources you found are mixed, which is not surprising when you simply make one search in Google Scholar. Mediation will help to take this forward and I hope we will all participate. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:12, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
What brings up the question where to search for scientiffic sources than in an scientiffic database? --WSC ® 12:04, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
A scientific database, yes. Like Web of Science. Not Google Scholar. And then when you have found some possible sources, you are meant to access those sources, read them all the way through, and then decide if and how they can be used in Wikipedia. The Buchanan biography, for example, should be a good source for us. But I can only see part of it in Google Preview. Some of the sources you posted are only visible in Snippet View, which is completely useless. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:11, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
Well If you pay the bill of WoSc. I will seach there. Scholar is a good solution if you don't have the time to visit the university library. Futher it's possible to check the hits. E.g. if the source is cited by other authors and so on. Will you now deny the online availible sources too? Just because you have the chance to check the sources?
It's curious Buchanan's full biography dosen't write about the fact, Eysenck published in the german far-right magazins and books, he only knew the publication in "beacon", the english far-right party-magazine, Eysenck also flirted with. Is it possible Buchanan only used english language sources? However, I'm tired of repeating the same arguments ever and ever. If you have serious objection which makes the sources I colleced doubtalbe, please put them up for discussion. --WSC ® 14:18, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

In following this ongoing TALK, it appears that Magnussen is attempting to differentiate Facts from Accusations, Itsmejudith is acting in the interest of Wikipedia Policy and Widescreen seems to have a personal agenda --- note the manner in which he is attempting to defend what he wrote in Section 3.1 of the Article. Widescreen did not follow the fundamental Wikipedia principle of NPOV (Neutral Point of View). As written, Section 3.1 violates WP-NPOV. In the face of evidence that Eysenck was not of the extreme right, nor was he anti-Jewish, the question must be asked: What is Widescreen’s personal agenda in pursuing his attack on Eysenck? InigmaMan (talk) 15:21, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Hey six-contribution user! It seems you know more about the rules of wikipedia than anyone else do. I personally are more assailed by doubts if you are a socketpuppet of one of the useres beein part of this diskussion or if you are a meatpuppt. I haven't quite decided this question yet. But I think in this case it won't take years to decide that. --WSC ® 15:42, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
Widescreen use of abusing a fellow talk contributor is a violation of Wikipedia Policy. I have tried to make Section 3.1 more neutral correcting your non-neutral position which violates WP-NPOV. Please try to be civil in your dealings with others. And more important, forget your agenda and attempt to be NEUTRAL InigmaMan (talk) 16:04, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm not interested in have a conversation with a socketpuppet or meatpuppet. Log in under your real account, and we can have a debatte. --WSC ® 16:10, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

@Itsmejudith, I had Dr Buchanan's biography out of the library a couple of years ago, and can probably get it again. It's critical of Eysenck, I would even say hostile, but the references appeared to me to be conscientious and detailed, so I would agree it's potentially a good source.

You said (above) that we don't define terms. Could you tell me where to find the definitions we're using for "far right" and/or "extreme right"? They seem to me to be weasel words — specifically, just vague terms of abuse. If it can be shown that Prof. Eysenck was a member of, or voted for, some particular party, then let us say that. Likewise, if it can be shown that he advocated segregation, or discrimination on racial grounds, then let us say that, and people can make the appropriate inferences. But we will have confined ourselves to verifiable facts. Paul Magnussen (talk) 16:38, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

@WSC, could you explain what you mean by "rabulistic"? I can't find it in the dictionary. Paul Magnussen (talk) 16:38, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

de:Rabulistik. [11] [12] --WSC ® 16:47, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
The Far-right is defined in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics The Far-right (also known as the extreme right or radical right) refers to the highest degree of rightism in right-wing politics. Far right politics involves support of strong or complete social hierarchy in society, and supports supremacy of certain individuals or groups deemed to be innately superior who are to be more valued than those deemed to be innately inferior.ref>Woshinsky, Oliver H., Explaining Politics: Culture, Institutions, and Political Behavior (Oxon, England; New York City, United States: Routledge, 2008) p. 154.</ref Should Widescreen present evidence that Eysenck had been an active supporter of “the highest degree of rightism” he might have a reason for his attack, however he is unable to provide evidence for that extreme position. In reviewing the Wikipedia definitions of the terms used, Widescreen is “hung by his own petard.” Those contributing to this article must take the position required by Wikipedia Policy, WK-NPOV. There is no referenced evidence that Eysenck was ever a supporter of what Wikipedia has defined as the highest degree of rightism, i.e. the Far-right. InigmaMan (talk) 17:25, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
@WSC Thank you. The word appears not to exist in English. My German dictionary (Cassell's) translates Rabulist as pettigfogger, hair-splitter. Requiring evidence for insulting assertions may be hair-splitting to you; however, as I understand, it is required by Wikipedia policy. Paul Magnussen (talk) 19:03, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
@Paul Mgnussen: Whatever you say. --WSC ® 19:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

As to Race, Education and Intelligence (or its US edition, the IQ Argument): If WSC can supply a page number to substantiate his allegations about what it says, I will be happy to send a PDF of that page to a mediator. Paul Magnussen (talk) 21:28, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Well I prefer secondary sources than WP:OR. --WSC ® 21:56, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
R, I &E is a secondary source; the primary source is Jensen. Paul Magnussen (talk) 23:12, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
You won't understand the relation between primary and secondary source? Right? Ok, I try again. The sources I listed here discussed the work of Eysenck among others. So these are secondary sources. Eysenck may be a secondary source for the works of Jensen. But thats not crucial. --WSC ® 16:14, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
OK, sounds reasonable. Have you come up with a direct quotation from Eysenck (with page number) instead of a doctored paraphrase yet? I mean, if you're interested enough in the bloke to spend all this time and effort, don't you think it would be useful to read what he actually said, instead of just what someone else says he said? Paul Magnussen (talk) 18:34, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

1) I am unable to read the references that were provided in 3.1 National Zeitung and Freud. Please, would someone give the verbatim entry so it can be used to measure if it meets the level of being in the highest degree of rightism as defined in the Far-right Wikipedia Article. (Eysenck may have been guilty of rudeness and/or poor taste, but does what is in the reference reach the highest degree level of rightism as defined by Wikipedia?)

(2) Regarding 3.1, that Eysenck called the equality of humans an “untenable ideological doctrine” First, after examining (http://www.ferris.edu/HTMLS/othersrv/isar/archives2/billig/chapter2.htm) there is nothing more here than a repeat of the Jenson-Eysenck IQ controversy. That those of the Far-right chose to use the work of Jenson and Eysenck, does not make Jenson and Eysenck of the Far-right. Second, would someone please provide the actual context in which Eysenck is reported to have written: “the equality of humans is an untenable ideological doctrine” in order for us to ascertain if he were describing biological equality or if he were being racist. If no one is able to do this, then that alleged connection must be deleted. InigmaMan (talk) 20:21, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Hans Eysenck/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

comprehensive enough to be B class. Eysenck is in the top of his field. --Rikurzhen 03:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Last edited at 03:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 20:37, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hans_Eysenck/Archive_1&oldid=1079503969"