Talk:Hanni (singer)

Nationality infobox incorrect

Hanni and her siblings are Vietnamese Australians, that is Australians with Vietnamese ancestry. Nationality refers to citizenship. Vietnam only offers dual-citizenship in rare circumstances. There are articles saying Hanni uses her Australian passport at airports. Hanni has only said "Vietnamese Australian" as per the context of the Wikipedia article, as she would as an Australian citizen.

Now some music news articles have picked up this Wikipedia biography to say Hanni has dual-citizenship. This has causing absurd controversy in Vietnam, which requires some national fidelity to the state. This is all circular reasoning. Hanni has nothing to do with the politics or laws of Vietnam.

For another analysis see: https://m.blog.naver.com/jhnsn/223138660452.

See https://lawyers-vietnam.com/citizenship-in-vietnam for an explanation how unusual it would be for second-generation Australians to obtain Vietnamese-Australian dual citizenship.

There is evidence of Australian citizenship due to her birthplace in Melbourne and passport use. There is no evidence of any Vietnamese citizenship or of a Vietnamese law granting it automatically. Until otherwise proven, the nationality of Hanni MUST be described as Australian. Travelmite (talk) 03:54, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Following up, there is an archive page full of incorrect assertions. Well, that can be all fixed. Travelmite (talk) 04:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you - she should be listed as Australian. Especially seeing as we have her info box saying “Nationality: Vietnamese-Australian” which is something that doesn’t exist. In that, she is either a dual national (Meaning nationalities would be Vietnamese comma Australian) OR we are describing her ethnicity, something that is not done on WP. The reference also doesn’t describe her citizenship, only her ethnicity as an Australian with Vietnamese lineage. I feel we remove it from the info box but leave the information in her early life section about her parents. I’m glad you brought this up. orangesclub 🍊 04:07, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

There are sound reasons to dispute that there is a consensus on the archive page. Wikipedia editors with expertise in nationality law should be included in this update. Travelmite (talk) 06:15, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

There is also an incorrect application of MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES which merely states what punctuation is required. It does not say to presume dual nationality, and it does not override Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons. Travelmite (talk)

Phrases like "Vietnamese Australian" (or "Australian Vietnamese") do not automatically imply dual citizenship. If such an implication runs a bit stronger in Australian English than otherwise, then it would probably make sense to use alternative phrasing. Regardless, the goal of the wording should be to indicate a native/citizen of Australia, and (if it's relevant to her notability, which seems to be the case) a Vietnamese ethno-familial background. These facts do not really even need to be in the same sentence; there is no requirement to use the string "Vietnamese Australian" if that is seen as problematic. In the US, "Vietnamese American" would not be problematic, and would not at all imply dual citizenship. My experience (limited) of this sort of thing abroad is that word order is often reversed in the UK (e.g. "British[-]Vietnamese", often hyphenated), but not universally, and also does not imply anything about citizenship. These sorts of ethno-national compounds appears to be more common in North American (including Canadian) usage than in English elsewhere, but it's not something I've seen reliable data about.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:04, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. The issue is the infobox which says "Nationality: Vietnamese Australian", which does imply dual citizenship. Travelmite (talk) 08:47, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I have been asked to comment here -- I think because I have edited articles related to nationality law. I hasten to disclaim that I am not a lawyer and have not been educated in law in any jurisdiction. That said, it is my understanding that a sovereign state decides whether or not an individual is or is not a citizen according to its own precepts, regardless of the opinions of other countries, of the individual involved, or of others such as Wikipedia editors.

• In a web search, I found an item titled Law No. 07/1998/QH10 on Vietnamese Nationality of 20 May 1998 and linked here, Article 3 says, "The State of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam recognizes that the Vietnamese citizens have only one nationality; the Vietnamese nationality." I take that to indicate that if some other state recognizes an individual recognized as a citizen of Vietnam, the Vietnam state does not recognize the validity of that recognition by another state and regardless of the opinion of Wikipedia editors.
• Article 11, "Papers proving Vietnamese nationality", lists "certificate of Vietnamese nationality" and "His/her birth certificate enclosed with papers proving the Vietnamese nationality of his/her parents". I take that to indicate such papers, if they exist, prove Vietnamese nationality. That article indicates that other papers might also provide such proof, but does not list them.

I suggest reference to the Multiple citizenship article -- at least the first paragraph of the lead section. "Dual citizenship| is a slippery term. It is entirely possible for two countries to consider an individual as their citizen and, as I understand things, neither of those countries would have a valid opinion regarding the validity regarding validity of the recognition of the other country's citizenship recognition; the opinion of Wikipedia editors such as myself would not rise to even that level of validity.

I see that the article cites this source, which mentions "Directive 222" as, apparently, a big deal about this. The mention is linked to this, which seems to contain the Vietnamese text of Directive 222 on page 237. I have not translated or tried to understand the text but I not that it seems to be dated 1975. Perhaps I am jumping to a conclusion, but it seems to me that the law dated 1998 would supersede this iof there is a conflict.

That's about as far as I can go quickly. I have not read either the article or that supporting source carefully, but the source says, 'pro-government social media page Tifosi said “there are many idols but only one fatherland,” implying that supporting Hanni would be unpatriotic.' and does not seem to mention anything about her nationality and, if it did, that would be the opinion of whomever wrote that on that social media page. If nationality is to be an issue, sources more directly to that point would need to be cited and, if those sources differ inn their viewpoints, WP:DUE would come into play.

I've used the terms nationality and citizenship above as if they are equivalent. They are not equivalent in the case of the United States but, AFAIK, they are equivalent in most or all other cases.

I hope that some of the above is helpful ratrher that just copnfusing the issue. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 11:05, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. In summary, Wikipedia editors cannot decide on legal matters; the directive of 1998 means that second-generation Australians (like Hanni born 2004) would not have Vietnamese citizenship or nationality; and there is no specific mention of Vietnamese nationality any reliable sources with direct knowledge. Travelmite (talk) 12:50, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

A further update. I have checked the so-called reliable articles. Some of these state that Hanni was born in Vietnam, which is false. Others are vague about nationality vs ethnicity. This is a good demonstration that the articles are unreliable. Travelmite (talk) 13:21, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I interpret that 1998 law differently.

As I read Article 11, Vietnam bases nationality on Jus sanguinis, not on Jus soli. Hani would be a VN national if her parents were—lplace of birth does not seem to come into it. The government of Australia may or may not hold an opinion re whether or not she is a VN national. Separately, they may or may not recognize her as an Australian national (I have not looked at that). As I read Article 3, the government of VN would not recognize that she holds Australian nationality. What Wikipedia editors think about any of that does not matter at all -- per WP:V, anything asserted in a WP article must be attributable to one or more published reliable sources; such supporting sources should be cited. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 21:10, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I see your point. We certainly do not know the status of the parents, if they were stateless refugees, if they renounced, or lost citizenship under the earlier directives. I also found a 2008 law [1] where article 13(2) seems to require overseas Vietnamese to register within 5 years to retain their nationality. A lawyer would need to figure all this out with the family details at hand. It seems unlikely music journalists sources know this and just jump to conclusions. Regardless, we can all agree that Wikipedia editors must avoid such legal presumptions. Thank you for all your explanations. 11:00, 26 October 2024 (UTC) Travelmite (talk) 11:00, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

(added) I took a quick look at this source, which the article cites to support an infobox assertion that Hani's nationnality is " Vietnamese Australian". I do not see any support in that article for an assertion that she holds either nationality. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 21:29, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Issues are: 1. it does not mention nationality or citizenship 2. Writer is a PhD student in Canada who has no knowledge of singer's nationality or citizenship. They may have picked it up the descriptor from this very page. Travelmite (talk) 11:18, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

(added) I did a little more digging and found support in "[FACTCHECK] As K-pop diversifies, take a look back at the changing lineups of acts". Korea JHongAng Daily. May 9, 2023. I note that the home page for the publisher, here, says, "In association with New York Times", for whatever that might be wirth reliability-wise. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 22:08, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

The specific words are "Hanni was born and raised in Melbourne, Australia to Vietnamese parents. Vietnamese nationality OR descent is rarely seen in K-pop" -- a broad comment. [2] Travelmite (talk) 11:23, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Previous consensus non-conforming to WP:BLP

A previous consensus is identified in Talk:Hanni_(singer)/Archive_1 however it did consider or apply the policies Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons. The cited "reliable sources" during the discussion state that Hanni was born in both Vietnam and Australia. They variously state she is a Vietnamese national, an Australian national and a dual citizen. The inaccuracies between the sources appear not addressed. The cited source does not mention Hanni's nationality. Wikipedia:Verifiability directs editors to not use material from sources that are demonstrably inaccurate. Perennial sources WP:RSP do not mention Hanni's nationality suggesting it has not been publicly disclosed. WP:BLP strictly requires edits to be "written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy" and "Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion". Such deletions are except from the three revert-rule as per [WP:3RRBLP]]. It follows that the previously formed consensus was not compliant with Wikipedia policies and may not be followed. Travelmite (talk) 14:16, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

History of inaccurate sourcing

I provide the following summary in timeline format of inaccurate and/or inconsistent sourcing:

1) 2022.08.14 Startpage[3] "hani, is a Vietnamese rapper" "Born ... Vietnam". There is no source. The only other link cites a unrelated group called GOT7.

2) 2022.09.29[4] "a Vietnamese-Australian rapper" "Born ... Melbourne" (no source, the dash indicates dual nationality as per MOS:DUALNATIONALITY in contrast to Vietnamese Australian)

3) 2024.06.16[5] Infobox "Citizenship: Vietnam.Australia", source is the harassment by Vietnamese nationalists in mid-2023 Dong Sun-hwa. "NewJeans member Hanni's dual nationality causes stir". The Korea Times. Archived from the original on September 7, 2023. Retrieved June 16, 2024. "some extremists even demanding she gives up her Vietnamese nationality" which was presumed.

4) 2024.07.01[6] Novice user deletes citizenship line calling it "False information", followed by 17 days of edit tussles with many users and debate on talk page. Editor banned and CTOPS notice added [7]

5) 2024.07.01-17 Talk:Hanni_(singer)/Archive_1 defenders of the page prioritise 3RR rule over BLP policy (contrary to WP:3RRBLP) and claim "reliable sources"[8] that directly contradict each other as follows:

(a) 2022.07.22[9] "Hani is a Vietnamese national"

(b) 2022.07.26[10] "The 18-year-old was born in Vietnam but was raised in Australia".

(c) 2022.08.03[11] "Hani (18, Vietnamese)"

(d) 2022.08.11[12] "Hani has dual citizenship in Vietnam and Australia".

(e) 2023.05.09[13] "Hanni was born and raised in Melbourne, Australia to Vietnamese parents".

(f) 2023.05.12[14] "Hanni was born in Vietnam, but raised in Australia".

Overlooked are sources elsewhere referring to Hanni as just Australian, such as BBC 2023.02.01 [15] "she is an Australian citizen and of Vietnamese descent"; and 2023.01.07 Daily Mail UK "Australian member, Hanni Pham"[16]. In fact, her actual citizenship or nationality has not been specifically disclosed. It was suggested "errors regarding her birthplace" did not affect source reliably [17].

6) 2024.06.17[18] Infobox "Nationality: Vietnamese-Australian" source Quoc Tan Trung Nguyen (March 9, 2023). "Backlash against K-pop star Hanni shows Vietnam still struggles with the legacy of the war". The Conversation. Retrieved July 17, 2024. < !-- As per consensus at talk page, maintain Vietnamese–Australian nationality as per MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES guidelines -- >. The PhD student's article does not state the singer's nationality or citizenship.

7) 2024.08.17[19]; 2024.08.19[20]; 2024.10.10[21]; 2024.10.25[22] there were further edit tussles over nationality line and 'real' name.

8) 2024.09.26 Vietnamese Wiki version infobox states "Citizen: Australian" after their own debate.

The above history shows no confirmation or disclosure of Hanni's nationality - its all guesswork/WP:NOR. The inconsistency makes it self-evident that proper citation and reliable sourcing has not been applied. WP:BLP is not being followed. Travelmite (talk) 08:12, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Inline comment must be removed

As demonstrated above, the so-called consensus is inconsistent with WP:BLP and must be altered. Travelmite (talk) 08:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Email from Author of Ref 1

I have received an email on 28/1/2024 from the author of reference 1: Quoc Tan Trung Nguyen (9 March 2023). "Backlash against K-pop star Hanni shows Vietnam still struggles with the legacy of the war". The Conversation. Archived from the original on 22 February 2024. Retrieved 17 July 2024.

He writes:

The term "Vietnamese Australian," which I used at the article's outset, is a standard descriptor for Australians of Vietnamese descent. This usage is well-established in academic literature, as evidenced in works like "The Vietnamese Australians: Traditions, Education, Tenacity" by Hien Minh Thi Tran. Additionally, I linked to an article from the National News that specifically identifies Hanni as a Vietnamese Australian.

This confirms that the author was not specifying dual citizenship. Travelmite (talk) 08:25, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

As the article by Quoc Tan Trung Nguyen is not biographical, but primarily about Vietnamese nationalism and their unreasonable boycott, I have created an External Link to the article, instead it being a content reference. Travelmite (talk) 11:52, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy on use of Infoxbox

Wikipedia:INFONAT gives direction on the use of Infoxboxes, as follows:

In biographies, a |nationality= field should not be used. This was previously available for legal nationality, but was often confused with national identity or ethnicity.

This confirms that the nationality field in the article infobox must be removed. Travelmite (talk) 08:32, 29 October 2024 (UTC)