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Did you know nomination

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Desertarun (talk) 10:28, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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5x expanded by SL93 (talk). Self-nominated at 17:50, 17 July 2021 (UTC).[reply]

Suggestion for DYK hook

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@Cwmhiraeth, TheAafi, Desertarun, and SL93: I think this DYK needs to be changed. There is no reference in the article to confirm that Hanne Nielsen invented Havarti cheese. da: Havarti states that despite the Havarti name the cheese type was never produced at Havartigård. A conference paper cited in the article states that a cheese known as Danbo Tilsiter was renamed Havarti in Nielsen’s honour in 1951.[1] Havarti does say Nielsen created Havarti, but the sources for the references don’t look reliable: one says that she was the "wife of a New Zealand farmer".[2][3]

I suggest that this article and Havart should be reworded to say "a cheese previously known as Danbo Tilsiter was renamed Havarti in Nielsen’s honour in 1951"[1] and propose

References

  1. ^ a b Burchardt, Jørgen (March 2019). "A 150-Year Shift In Cheese Tastes: Social, Economic And Cultural Dimensions Of Danish Cheeses". Conference: Food, Heritage and Community. An Inclusive Interdisciplinary Conference. A Food and Drink in the 21st Century Project: 33. Retrieved 17 July 2021 – via ResearchGate.
  2. ^ "Havarti Cheese". itscheese.com. Retrieved 27 July 2018.
  3. ^ "Danish Havarti". www.cheesemonthclub.com. Retrieved 27 July 2018.
  • SL93 the sources do seem to be contradictory, so it is not surprising that four editors have checked the nomination and not found a problem. I think that the issue should be resolved before the DYK is published, but it is up to Cwmhiraeth. TSventon (talk) 15:03, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • TSventon I originally came across the claim that Hanne Nielsen invented Havarti cheese on a package of imported cheese from Castello cheeses, as I also found at Cheese Market News. I would hope that an agricultural cooperative in Denmark since 1893 would know the history of the cheese. The sources might be contradictory at times, but I am worried that the article will be pulled completely after I put so much effort into it. It wasn't easy finding sources about her life. SL93 (talk) 15:10, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • TSventon According to a Danish made Copenhagen travel website and my other reading, there are two types of Havarti cheese still in production. The first is the original (i.e. traditional) since 1852 and second is creamy Havarti in 1920. According to that website, Havarti cheese was invented at her farm. I'm going to vouch for the modern Danish sources over the old Danish sources. SL93 (talk) 15:29, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm trying to find the 1951 reference to Danbo being named Havarti with no luck. Danbo is its own cheese. SL93 (talk) 15:38, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • SL93 the nomination seems to have been swapped, which will delay it for a couple of days and give some time for further investigation. The most reliable sources I have seen so far are the Dansk Biografisk Leksikon, quoted above and the Dansk Kvindebiografisk Leksikon [3], which does not mention Havarti cheese. Have you read them? They are both in Danish, but they are online and can be read via Google translate. If reliable sources conflict it may be necessary to include both versions. TSventon (talk) 16:26, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • TSventon Well, what would you suggest as a hook and as a change to the article? Your alt hook is based on something that isn't true per Danbo. SL93 (talk) 16:31, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • SL93 I will try to do some research and respond tomorrow. DYK articles are read by thousands of people and if there is an error anyone can report it. TSventon (talk) 16:46, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • From the DBL and sources such as videnommad and [4], it appears that the cheese now called Havarti was originally produced, possibly by Nielsen, as Danish Tilsit and that it was only in 1952 that it was officially renamed Havarti. A convincing account in Kristeligt Dagblad states that the name Havarti actually came from the old Danish word "avarti" from "åbred" or the flowering banks of a stream but was changed to Havarti in honour of Hanne Nielsen. It goes on to explain that "ironically, she never produced the type of cheese that was named after her". These accounts contract the Oxford Companion, although the summary there is not totally inaccurate. I nevertheless think the article should first be modified and then a more fitting hook should be put together. I'll try to look at this more carefully tomorrow.--Ipigott (talk) 20:23, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you Ipigott. I have found the specification on the Danish Food Administration's website [5] and section 6 confirms that the cheese was first produced in 1921 and the name was given in 1952. Avarti seems to be an early form of the name of the farm. I presume fisked ost means cheese with small bubbles. TSventon (talk) 20:48, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
SL93 I have reread the conference paper and I misread page 32 as saying Havarti was formerly Danbo. Other pages (26, 33) make it clear Havarti was formerly Tilsiter. TSventon (talk) 13:20, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ipigott TSventon Why don't we just combine the sources and state how the information is contradictory? The hook could then be changed based on that. It is better than arguing what reliable sources are better to use due to the fact that we have no actual way to know. SL93 (talk) 20:44, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ALT2: ... that Danish dairy farmer Hanne Nielsen may have invented Havarti cheese and created a Tilsit cheese for King Christian IX of Denmark? That is a simple way to go about it. SL93 (talk) 20:44, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
SL93 hopefully things will be clearer tomorrow. TSventon (talk) 20:54, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
TSventon I doubt it. I'm reworking the article now and that would be a simple fix. SL93 (talk) 20:57, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Cwmhiraeth: thank you for the delay, after extended discussion here and at Talk:Havarti I am now happy with the proposed hooks. Thank you SL93 and Ipigott for your cooperation. TSventon (talk) 18:20, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Out of the two hooks, I prefer ... that Danish dairy farmer Hanne Nielsen created a Tilsit cheese for King Christian IX of Denmark? Cwmhiraeth, could it also be moved to a higher prep with an open slot? SL93 (talk) 18:30, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ALT2

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I reworked the article and I suggest ALT2... that Danish dairy farmer Hanne Nielsen may have invented Havarti cheese and created a Tilsit cheese for King Christian IX of Denmark? I have found no valid reason to believe that we can find a definite history of Havarti cheese when several authors can't even agree. Are we cheese history experts? Pinging Cwmhiraeth about changing the hook. Pinging TSventon as well. SL93 (talk) 21:17, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

SL93 Ipigott has offered their help tomorrow, so I am happy to wait until then. TSventon (talk) 21:33, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Cwmhiraeth We have a workable hook with ALT2 and a workable solution that is already in the article. Ipigott agreed above that ALT2 will work and the only dissenting opinion is TSventon who seems to want us to evaluate which sources are better and then go with that. My issue with doing it that way is that people can still claim our interpretation is an error due to what other sources say. Our interpretation is specifically against WP:OR. SL93 (talk) 15:24, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
TSventon I'm seeing if you can agree to this hook. We can't just pick one side of the reliable sources to cover per WP:RS and WP:OR. If this is agreed to then Ipigott, you, and myself will have agreed to it. SL93 (talk) 16:42, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I forgot to also mention Wikipedia:Neutrality of sources and WP:BALANCE. SL93 (talk) 16:46, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Did Hanne Nielsen invent Havarti

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  • Yes
  • The Oxford Companion to Cheese "Hanne Nielsen ... created the now most famous Danish cheese in the 1800s"[1]
  • Wisconsin Cheese "Havarti was created in Denmark in the 1880s by Hanne Nielsen ... She then developed the cheese on Havarti, her experimental farm" [2]
  • Cheesemarketnews "inspired by the Prussian Tilsiter cheese and brought to Denmark by cheese pioneer Hanne Nielsen" and "Danish Havarti dates back to the 1920s but was not named until 1952".[3]
  • No
  • Product specification "the name Havarti was chosen in honour of Mrs. Hanne Nielsen for the efforts in the field of cheese production she practiced at Havartigaarden"[4]
  • Dansk Biografisk Leksikon[5]
  • videnskab.dk[6]
  • Kristeligt Dagblad[7]
  • Viden om mad "Hanne Nielsen started production of .. Tilsiter cheese, today known by the name of Havarti".[8]
  • Conference paper[9]

References

  1. ^ Catherine W. Donnelly (2016). The Oxford Companion to Cheese. Oxford University Press. p. 346. ISBN 978-0-19-933088-1.
  2. ^ Martin Hintz; Pam Percy (26 February 2008). Wisconsin Cheese: A Cookbook and Guide to the Cheeses of Wisconsin. Rowman & Littlefield. p. 229. ISBN 978-0-7627-5196-9.
  3. ^ Archwamety, Rena (December 2017). "Cheese of the Month - December 2017". Cheese Market News. Retrieved August 1, 2021.
  4. ^ "Varespecifikation Havarti" (PDF). Foedevarestyrelsen. Retrieved 2 August 2021.
  5. ^ Bjørn, Claus. "Hanne Nielsen". Dansk Biografisk Leksikon. Retrieved 2 August 2021.
  6. ^ Ostrowski, Kasper (May 3, 2020). "When cheese becomes 'big politics': The story of how havarti and other Danish cheeses got their names". Forskerzonen. Retrieved August 1, 2021.
  7. ^ Høeg Lammers, Anders (4 May 2020). "Klassiske danske oste stammer fra udlandet". Kristeligt Dagblad. Retrieved 2 August 2021.
  8. ^ "Leksikon Havarti". Videnommad. Retrieved 2 August 2021.
  9. ^ Burchardt, Jørgen (March 2019). "A 150-Year Shift In Cheese Tastes: Social, Economic And Cultural Dimensions Of Danish Cheeses". Conference: Food, Heritage and Community. An Inclusive Interdisciplinary Conference. A Food and Drink in the 21st Century Project. Retrieved 17 July 2021 – via ResearchGate.
  • Ipigott SL93 I think we need to weigh up the sources, update the Hanne Nielsen and Havarti articles accordingly, then choose a hook. My interpretation is that Hanne Nielsen produced and sold cheese from her farm Havartigården in the 19th century, including Tilsiter cheese. Production of a cheese called "Danish Tilsiter" began in 1921 and, in 1952, Danish Tilsiter was named Havarti after Havartigården, in memory of Nielsen. TSventon (talk) 12:19, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
TSventon Can you give it a go? I'm not sure what you want to be done. SL93 (talk) 15:17, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ipigott already stated that they are fine with ALT2. SL93 (talk) 15:18, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we should do an interpretation of the sources. I think that saying the sources are contradictory is good enough and isn't an error. A hook has been chosen. Weighing up the sources with our own interpretation is against policy at WP:OR. SL93 (talk) 15:20, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
TSventon Please don't add unreferenced content to Havarti per WP:V. That doesn't help anything. SL93 (talk) 16:02, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
SL93 I added translated content separately to make the attribution clear. Can you let me add the content and references then revert it if you disagree? Alternatively I could add it to the Havarti talk page. TSventon (talk) 16:10, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
TSventon I disagree entirely because the Danish Wikipedia content is unsourced. Adding sources your way is against policy per WP:OR. Also, the videnommad source says yes to Havarti because created by Nielsen - "Among the cheeses that Hanne Nielsen started production of was Tilsiteroste, which today is known by the name, Havarti.". SL93 (talk) 16:12, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
SL93 my edit was not WP:OR because sources are available. Videnommad says that Nielsen started production of tilsiter cheese, but not that she invented the version of tilsiter which is now protected as havarti. As you see I have posted a sourced version at Talk:Havarti. TSventon (talk) 17:15, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
TSventon Per policy, we should be referencing all sides. I'm not sure how best to get that across. SL93 (talk) 17:17, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My reading of the Videnommad source is completely different. The source just says that the name of what she created was changed to Havarti = same cheese. SL93 (talk) 17:18, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ALT3

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TSventon ALT3 ... that Danish dairy farmer Hanne Nielsen created a Tilsit cheese for King Christian IX of Denmark? One of us then can add your sourced content from Havarti to here. I think that seems fair. I'm sorry if I came across as rude as well. I wasn't trying to be, but I see how it could have came across that way. SL93 (talk) 17:32, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

SL93 you weren't rude, just enthusiastic about your nomination. I admit to feeling some pressure myself. TSventon (talk) 18:04, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Good for me.--Ipigott (talk) 18:10, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
SL93 I am glad to see the hook has been updated and moved up the queue. I have removed a sentence that seemed to be a duplicate, hope that is OK. TSventon (talk) 08:11, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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