Talk:Hand signaling (open outcry)

Added Original Research template

The usage of the term "arb" to describe these hand signals is one that I have never heard of, and then looking at google, no references to arb and gesture other than this article. Frankly, these hand signals are old and the term arb is quite new, I believe this entire article is unlikely to be accurate and will nominate it for deletion in a few days unless cited. patsw 14:29, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

This is an overwhelmingly common term. It's been used in the CBOT manual for a number of past editions. Search the google book search for more information. The Wikipedia standard is not whether it shows upon google, but rather, whether it is not original research and is an otherwise proper article. Describing the gesturing system used by virtually every financial trading market certainly qualifies. See, e.g., The Day Trader: From the Pit to the PC, Lewis J. Borsellino, p 159; Leg The Spread, Cari Lynn (book cover); Commodity trading manual, Chicago Board of Trade; Fundamentals of the Futures Market, Donna C Kline, p 8; Humming the Wedding March,Donald MacKenzie (www.sps.ed.ac.uk/staff/documents/HummingtheWeddingMarch.pdf). Additionally, if the question is merely the name of the gesturing system, please discover a more common/appropriate name and rename the article. Your initial complaint is as to the "arb" name, not the information as to the gestures themselves. LH 06:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

There also appears to be ample google reference to "arb" and its usage as a hand gesture. Search for "arb open outcry" and you will find a number of hits. It also appears that arb is more generally used as shorthand for arbitrage which may be why your cursory google search didn't find any hits. If this is the case, this situation should be handled through a disambiguation page. However, multiple meanings of the same term has never warranted deletion.LH 06:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the info, LH. My issue is the term "arb" to apply to hand gestures, and if there is a story as to how that term came to be used. From your references, it is a CME/CBOT usage and I've been based in New York for 30 years where they are just called "hand signals", which explains my unfamiliarity with the term. As trading floors and pits close, there's a limited shelf life to them and it's important to document them. I will see if I can find some expired copyright/public domain info on them to add to the article. patsw 13:22, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Proposed Deletion

I've added this heading because the person who proposed the deletion did not. Remarkably, an unregistered user has added a proposed deletion and a hoax tag. Aside from the comment to the edits, there is no explanation.

This article, unlike many on wikipedia, does have sources that are cited specifically. An unregistered user's claim that it does not should be evaluated closely. Additionally, previous questions about this article have been discussed in these discussion pages. These include, references to books (viewable on google book reader).

Those who do not believe this information is accurate need to actually say why that is so. I believe that some have seen this article and after not knowing the term but having worked in the field, proposed its deletion. While I understand the instinct to keep wikipedia relevant, these spur-of-the-moment conclusions need to be supported by evidence when they've been met, on multiple occasions now, by countervailing evidence.LH (talk) 15:51, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I was the anon who added the banners - sorry about not raising the delete correctly. I removed the reference to the hand signal document as it did not support the usage of the term, in fact it did not contain the term 'arb' anywhere. Similarly the CBOT (commodity trading manual chapter 3 pp33 onward) search on google did not contain the term 'arb', and all references to the word arbitrage where in the commonly accepted context of exploiting price differentials for financial gain.

If it is indeed a valid term, given the difficulty in verifying it may be necessary to provide a definition within one of the searchable google books or equivalent in order to prevent this from occurring in the future. 92.235.226.190 (talk) 20:03, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

While there is a reasonable discussion as to the appropriateness of the term "arb" to refer purely to the hand guestures themselves, the hand gesture information inside the article is substantially supported by the references here, and the one removed by the parent. Accordingly, the deletion references, and certainly the hoax template, are inappropriate. If indeed "arb" is used incorrectly (I agree that this is plausible/needs additional reference) then the solution is to retitle/move the article--not delete it, and certainly not label it as a hoax.

The CBOT manual substantiates the gesture-substance information within this article. Additionally, the references above that also cite the CBOT manual use the term "arb" in reference to hand signals (See Kline p9), as well as "arb clerks." Most notably, this issue was discussed discussed nearly a year ago on this page. If the problem is the title of the article (this seems to be the substance), deletion is not proper response. As was said before: if the question is merely the name of the gesturing system, please discover a more common/appropriate name and rename the article. [The] initial complaint is as to the "arb" name, not the information as to the gestures themselves.170.140.56.68 (talk) 22:39, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

the cbot manual refers to arb clerks, not because 'arb' is the name of the gesture but rather arbitrage clerks facilitate trades by being the go between the desk and the brokers. pages 8-9 of kline which dicuss the 'hand signals' make no statement supporting the hand signals themselves being called 'arb'. if i'm wrong please provide the relevant sentence. otherwise yes the article should be renamed to prevent confusion. -- same anon

I would prefer it if someone else could comment on this thread, but I think you're right--the article should be renamed. Two questions then: 1) what article header should be used (or should it be integrated to open outcry ?); 2) what method should be used for renaming.LH (talk) 16:00, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

This article has hardly changed in 2 years. Perhaps no-one can find it. Merge and redirect with possibilities to Open outcry. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 21:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

AgreedLH (talk) 06:51, 23 May 2008 (UTC)