Talk:Hammam (disambiguation)

Explanation of original Arabic word belongs in the lead

@Leschnei: hi. I strongly disagree with your revert. I wanted to look up myself the Arabic term (which, as you can see, has lots and lots of ramifications and names derived from it), and the archaeological site, and both were missing on Wikipedia. When there is no article, the only place the term shows up is the disamb. page, which remains the only source of information on Wikipedia until such an article is created (if ever). The user wants the information; to say this page is only meant to separate different meanings is too narrow. Besides, it is very common for disamb. pages to start by explaining what the word means. That is even the standard. Some loan-words can be explained with one single translation, but with Arabic vocalisation comes in: depending on what vowels you add, the meaning changes. I didn't go into the different meanings here, just added the Wiktionary link and stated that they change. So no, not too much.
As to the "Hamaam" BS, until that is changed, the additions are needed. Nobody spells it with two "A"s in the "real world" - the Khirbet is named after the wadi, and it's always with just one "A". The (quite well publicised) archaeological site is still a red link, not everybody knows where exactly the See of Galilee is (and the Syrians want a piece, the Jordanians are almost on the shore, while the Palestinians are not), so specifying the country is perfectly legit.
But I'm afraid you reverted it all while meaning only the lead... Please, let's leave it as it is now, I assure you that the user will be grateful - I was very happy when I finally understood what "hamam" can mean in Arabic, and it's NOT the same as "Turkish bath". Thanks and have a great day, Arminden (talk) 05:39, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Arminden: I understand your objection and I was too hasty in removing that information. I see a lot of disambiguation pages that have way too much 'name' information and sometimes get impatient. Thanks for your explanation. Leschnei (talk) 12:35, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Turkish bath which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 19:04, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: DAB moved by transferring content to Hamam (disambiguation)

Just a heads-up: I've moved the DAB to "Hamam (disambiguation)" by simply copy-pasting the text there and adjusting links and Wikidata entries accordingly. Since both Hamam and Hamam (disambiguation) already existed, this seemed like the least headache-inducing way to do it, but if that was the wrong way to go about it feel free to point out the appropriate alternative and the changes can be reverted at both pages if needed. In particular, I wasn't sure if the talk page content and edit history needed to be transferred too, or whether that's unnecessary for simple redirect and DAB pages.
The justification for the change is in the edit summary, but for convenience here: "Hamam" is a very common spelling variant of "Hammam" (e.g. search "hamams" on Google or Google Books) and should redirect to that WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, as readers can reasonably expect to arrive at that page when searching for that word. The header at the Hammam main page has been adjusted to link to Hamam (disambiguation). R Prazeres (talk) 06:55, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted, as you should never move a page with nontrivial edit history by cutting and pasting the content. Follow instructions at WP:RM to move a page. older ≠ wiser 11:07, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I'll list it under technical moves, assuming that works. Sorry if this seems obvious, but does the admin making the move take care of deleting the target page before moving this one to it, or do I need to request a speedy delete of the other page first? R Prazeres (talk) 17:41, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure it qualifies under technical. There are several other uses and it's not obvious (at least to me) that turkish baths is primary topic for the term. older ≠ wiser 19:07, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, I'll avoid further complications and do the full regular request here. Thanks for the feedback. R Prazeres (talk) 19:49, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 26 February 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 23:51, 5 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hamam → Hammam (disambiguation) – "Hamam" is a common and nearly interchangeable spelling variant of "Hammam" (e.g. search "hamams" on Google or Google Books) and should redirect to that WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, which means this DAB should be moved. Hammam (disambiguation) is certainly a reasonable place for the DAB to be located to begin with (or Hamam (disambiguation), but either one works). The Hammam page is the primary topic both in terms of overall notability (again, easy to verify with Google or an academic library search) and also since most of the "Hammam/Hamam" names on this DAB (with the exception of surnames I think) are almost certainly etymologically or topically derived from this baths/water/heat meaning of "Hammam", which has been present in Arabic and Arabic-influenced cultures for a millennium or more. The situation is similar to Madrasa (for example): the term itself has one clear primary meaning (school/college), and there are a few local towns/villages and at least one movie named after that, listed at Madrasa (disambiguation). PS: For context: "Hammam" comes from the Arabic transliteration and is usually the standard spelling, while "hamam" is the modern Turkish spelling and due to the abundance of Ottoman baths it also shows up a lot, not to mention because people also forget to spell a double "m".) R Prazeres (talk) 20:48, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I didn't help that (until cleaned it up) the disambiguation page hid the article Hammam behind a redirect. There is an issue with transliteration here, from at least 2 languages, but I think the nom is right to suggest that since Hammam is at that spelling, it is reasonable for the disambiguation page to be at Hammam (disambiguation). Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 13:45, 2 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A fresh look at the first paragraph

"A hammam, or Turkish bath, is a type of steam bath or place of public bathing associated with the Islamic world."

It is now nearly two years since the Victorian Turkish baths was was split from the hammam page because of widespread confusion between the two different types of bath. So it seems to me that a disambiguation page for hammam should emphasise what it is, rather than what it is not. Perhaps something along the lines of:

A hammam is a type of steam bath or place of public bathing associated with the Islamic world. (Often incorrectly called a Turkish bath because western travel writers first came across it in Turkey.) Ishpoloni (talk) 00:04, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The current text is literally copied directly from the article. older ≠ wiser 00:43, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, of course it is. But I don't think that necessarily precludes a fresh look from time to time, especially since, in the closed discussion immediately above, the double mm in hammam was noted as being more generally used instead of the single m which again over-emphasises, in my view, the Turkish practice rather than that of the wider Islamic world. Just a gentle thought. Ishpoloni (talk) 09:54, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The disambiguation entry describes the target article. If that needs any change, you likely should be discussing it on that article's talk page rather than here. older ≠ wiser 11:59, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks. I will do that. Ishpoloni (talk) 09:21, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Moorish bath

Since there is an article on the Moorish baths of Gibraltar and the term is much used elsewhere (eg, Urquhart's The Pillars of Hercules) I think there should be a redirect entry for 'Moorish bath' to 'Hammam', but I don't know how to do this. Ishpoloni (talk) 08:19, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can do it myself quickly, but if you want to try it out you can go here: both explains briefly and provides a convenient text box where you can input the title of the redirect to get started (and then it takes mere seconds to complete the process). R Prazeres (talk) 14:37, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. That was really helpful. I don't know why I didn't find that page before instead of landing on a complicated page of Principles.

Back to our consensus seeking re Turkish bath(s). Surely the current redirect from Turkish bath to Hammam is simply a case of the redirect being "an incorrect name for [one of] the target[s]"? I suppose this is what I should have briefly said at the beginning. Wikipedia has a long (but not unenjoyable) learning curve! Thanks again for your help. Ishpoloni (talk) 16:46, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]